Coyotes and Whitetails- management

[RandyRoede]

I believe the last increase in WS money to Wyoming was to help increase the fawn, kid, ratio wasn't it Brad and Coyotehunter.

In drought conditions especially the survival rate wll go way down to loss of vegation for kids or fawns to hide in from predators.

Coyotes will turn on to the fawns and kids and hunt them, I have areas where the number of coyotes are higher and the fawns and kids are fewer. There is no more or less hunting done here. I have a 70% survival rate in some areas and in this area a 20% rate. Countless times taking them of kills and or watching them hunt and stalk deer and antelope. Blow a howler in early summer here and the deer will tell you who they are fearful of along with the antelope. If coyotes were not a predator a doubt you would get such an agressive reaction.

Hunting anymore does not do a lot to reduce or even control numbers here with countless doe tags usually left over in most counties. Depredation hunts were common last year in other areas due to deer getting into bales etc.

So it sounds like coyotes would be welcomed in some areas and would be a blessing to slow down some of the increase. Unfortunately it will be a crash and burn scenario, deer numbers will crash and the coyotes will explode leading to other problems with them getting into livestock. Then harsh coyote control and the circle starts all over.

This is why we try to find a happy medium, if possible, where everything can coexist. Everything benefits from predator control to a point and then there is a need for predators as well. Man being one of the predators. A harvest of both prey and predators by man. Don't let in become up to mother nature cause she is a cruel women who will show no mercy when it comes to control.

There used to be more predators to help but with man intervention it is up to us to somehow level the field. Used to be the predators had a checks and balances in place between predators.

TBush well put and good post!

Off I go to reduce some P Dogs populations.

[Prairie Ghost]

Randy yes there has been areas in WY concentrated on for spring fawning areas that have helped a lot. Our DNR is fairly good about having WS remove predators to increase public big game hunting.

Coyotes in general will show a decrease in your fawn or kid numbers to start with when they get to hitting on an area. However when the coyotes get to working on deer or antelope all year round is when the numbers really start to show taking a hit. Coyotes will and do hunt and kill full grown deer and antelope at will. I see it constantly. However as stated before i'm sure there is other factors (weather during fawning, drought seasons ect ect). Coyotes do a LOT of damage but also get blamed for a lot of things that they don't do. As far as dogs are concerned unless there is a wild dog population like AZ i doubt they are much of a factor.

Tbush great post taking care of some of the problem yourself can go a long ways.

A focused predator manangment stategy during key time of the year for deer and antelope can make a great difference. I will see if i can get a hold of some of the studies and numbers i have to post them. Working on the coyotes around the big deer yards when the winter gets hard can help a lot. A group of coyotes that gets keyed in those herds will work them constantly and can make a dent.

Great discussion guys

[Pilgrim]

Thanks to each and all for responses.

To Tim: The general area could be Big Stone Lake to Fargo within 15 miles of the Red River. I trust the SW counties have a similar stage of variables considering intensive farming practices and geography.

I've read dated studies that favor coyotes not being too hard in terms fawn mortality, and contemporary studies that suggest otherwise, especially in areas that lack protection (cover). This appears to be one of those deals.

If I were King i'd take up Lyonch's idea and have the coyotes hounded out. It's not my land so I don't have a say, and probably not healthy for most to look to the state for solving problems. It's all just interesting to me with regard to the lack of fawns compared to 15 years ago.

I read somewhere that the DNR's fur guy (Erb) doesn't seem to think farm coyotes equate to a deer problem because the "data" doesn't support. Modern wildlife management policies give alot of weight to scientists, who usually don't equate to being the best objectivists- Or as Albert Einstein warned, "The scientist is a poor philosopher". Nothing against Mr. Erb, it's just that scientists should do science- Making sense of it all is a job for the general practitioner.

I'll part with a little Spackler wisdom:
"I have to laugh, because I've outsmarted even myself. My enemy, my foe, is an animal. In order to conquer the animal, I have to learn to think like an animal. And, whenever possible, to look like one. I've gotta get inside this guy's pelt and crawl around for a few days."

[Dcoy]

Hunt with me more.I taught Spackler.
The Mn DNR is completely void of Spacklers as well nowadays.

[Tim Anderson]

Pilgrim ; Big stone lake area does have a good number of coyotes but that area also gets hit hard by hunters and i think they have a few contests there as well.. I have a friend in Browns valley and plan to stop in later this winter to see him. I'll maybe have to stick around a day or so and check the area out..

[Pilgrim]

Tim- Note that I don't know the Big Stone area-- I'm only inferring considering farm practices near the Red River (flat, farmsteads removed, small sloughs, less woods).


Dcoy- Let's go hunting, or whatever. Spackler would burn down South Dakota. "We can do that; we don't even have to have a reason."

[Red Fox]

The Minnesota Trappers Association wanted the trapping program. You can take the course online if you need too. There is still some time required for feild training that is required. The fur boom in the 70's killed trapping in more ways than one. The MTA knows it and wants the future of trapping to be protected the same way deer hunters protect hunting by having firearms saftey. If you dont know how to trap this is how to learn. I know the snaring of coyotes in the farmland area after December is one of the most effective ways of putting up numbers. I am a volunteer trapping instuctor and have given classes to kids and adults. There is not a more effective way of controling coyotes than trapping and snaring. The key is in the education.

[Coyotehunter]

I was hoping to get at this sooner. good grief my life has been busy the past few months. These days we have so many deer in areas that 30 years ago just barely had enough to issue tags. I believe that the coyotes can have an effect on a healthy deer population but generally not enough to create a hardship. Noticed I said healthy. A couple of harsh winters, droughts desease...............well then the doe fawn recruitment can really be impacted. The whitetail deer population in most midwestern states is probably at all time record highs inmost areas. With coyotes and other large predators reestablishing themselves in areas that they have not occupied in decades we will see some population fluctuations but I do not see that the impact will negatively impact those herds due just to predators. As the coyote numbers increase though the big winter storms like in 97' along with a high fawn mortality due to coyotes and mountain lions well then it will be harder for those herds to bounce back. which may require some predator control to allow for a faster recovery.

[barebackjack]

The whitetail deer population in most midwestern states is probably at all time record highs inmost areas.

Here I go digging up a "dead" thread.

You nailed it right there. Ill even expand that to include the whitetail population in most of the lower 48 has been at record levels for the last 10-15 years. The last few years however, have seen a slight decrease in whitetail numbers in parts of the upper midwest. Most guys have been spoiled with the record numbers of the last decade, now that were perhaps getting down closer to our "average" guys are screaming and hollering that "something" (i.e. coyotes) are to blame for it. When in reality, there are a multitude of reasons, and in some cases, there hasn't been much of a change at all.

Some areas haven't even experienced a decrease in numbers. More so, in the upper midwest, they've experienced an INCREASE in late fall cover (standing corn). This means fewer deer seen in the fall (when the vast majority of guys are out and about) and hence, a feeling that the deer numbers are down. Take the standard practice of the ND traditional "50 mph deer drive" through the wide open country. Now throw several thousand acres of standing corn in the mix. These guys just aren't seeing the deer that are there. And they ARE there.

Not saying coyotes cant have a negative impact, because they sure as hell can. Especially during fawning season in areas with lack of suitable fawning cover. And yes, they can have considerable impact on adult populations if conditions are right. But, coyotes, at least from the standpoint of deer, are blamed for considerably more damage than they actually cause.

IMO in ND, we've proven that hunters are incapable of controlling our blossoming deer populations, so we may as well keep some coyotes around to pick a few extra off for us before ma nature takes a more extreme course through disease and such.

[LeviM]

Its easy to convience coyote hunters that coyotes controll on the deer population in most areas is a good thing! Its impossible to convience any non coyote hunters, especially deer hunters that coyotes can do good in certain areas if the numbers are managable!

[yipyipyow]

I agree completely that the mid west is seeing a slight decrease in deer numbers. I think it is mostly from the intensive harvest the MN DNR put for the past couple years. You've got to remember that the DNR's goal was to decrease the deer herd. They knew that a 5 deer limit was not sustainable. Think about how easy it would be to kill off all the deer in a small 20 acre chunk of woods with very little cover. These areas have been getting hit by "deer drives" for the past couple years and the numbers are just now noticably coming down. I think that in MN if you have a problem with coyotes you should get rid of them yourself instead of relying on the gov't to send WS trappers to take care of the problem... they've already got there hands full with our states wolves!

[barebackjack]

Its easy to convience coyote hunters that coyotes controll on the deer population in most areas is a good thing! Its impossible to convience any non coyote hunters, especially deer hunters that coyotes can do good in certain areas if the numbers are managable!

Very true!

Its all about finding the balance.