Ultimate tournament rifle

[jaybic]

Hey guys,

Looking for advice here. After talking with a few guys at the NDCC this year I realized that you can pretty much not afford to miss even one coyote if you want to be competitive(sp?) and one particular fella there(who has finished very high in a number of big tournaments) kinda got it thru my head that the difference between the men and the boys was superior marksmanship and a rifle that you can count on all else being equal. He pretty much said to ditch the ARs(trying to win by firepower)and get something that really cooks so you can hold "on fur" as far out as possible. he told me "dont worry about the 15th shot, worry about the 1st one and his advice was to try a 22-6 or 22-6ai or 243 middlestead(22-243 or 22.243ai and shoot until you can hit a 4inch by 6 inch steel gong at 400yards 9 out of 10 times. Then your running with the big dogs in terms of marksmanship and being able to kill near everything within that range and even farther. I passed on a shot at a coyote at about 350yds with my AR and had I killed him, it would have put us in money and in hindsight, I was a fool to not at least take a poke at him. Something tells me that the Heid brothers wouldnt have just let him walk.

Now I currently shoot a brand new savage weather warrior in 22-250 and it shoots extremely well but what my question is is this. If you could build the "Ultimate Tournament Rfile", what would it be? I have a budget to some degree but am willing to spend some serious money if needed. Rebarrel a nearly brand new 22-250 to 22-6/ai? Build a custom gun on a Stiller Predator action? I would like to hear what you guys think.

Maybe my 22-250 is just fine and I just need to shoot the hell out of it at longer distances or use a heavier bullet? Currently shooting a 50gr Vmax at 3700fps sighted in at 200 yards. Any opinions are welcome, especially those of dedicated/experienced tournament huntes or just fellas with experience with these calibers. Load data, ballistics..ect..ect.

Normally I like to do minimal hide damage but when ya cant keep them anyway and every dog counts, I dont much care anymore. I believe that both coyotehunter and PG shoot 22-6s and I am thinking about something like that or maybe a 6x284(must be .24 cal or smaller).

Any ideas???

Thanks for your time,

Jaybic

[rorycoyote]

if ever possibly wanting to save hides id stick with 22 cal 22-6, 22-243 ect or just a coyote rifle. but if wanting a long range gun for tournaments i think the 6-284 would be good, a 243ai wouldnt be quite as good, but easier. i seen a coyote shot in jeffery city this year with a 243ai and if he shot it one more time he would of had 2 coyotes to bring in . but the large 22 cals can also be very devistating. in wyo the 24 cals would be a good investment if you hunt critters for meat such as deer and antelope that seem to present long shots quite frequently. this is just my 2c, but i dont have any of these rifles YET, so i dont have firsthand experience to talk.

[Daryl]

.243AI or a .243 catbird. Just my .02$

[Tbush]

This will be interesting, for someone like myself I don't cliam to know much about guns or reloading, building a rifle etc...but I would like to have a 6-7 hundred yard gun and not have to do all the wild cat loads or reloading can it be done???I currently shoot a ruger 22-250 with a 3x 7 cheap scope,with hand loads with only 47 left the guy that reloaded for me passed away last summer,, the ruger I shoot I'm comfortable out to 500 and thats it,I shot the last coyote at the classic at 434 yds looked at thru the scope 4-5 times closed my eyes for 15-20 sec. looked at it held were I needed and shot, one a couple years ago close to 500 at the classic( no range finder) a fox sleeping last year at 564 yds and it took me at least 15 min before I pulled the trigger,I did buy a rem 700 22-250 with a bull barrel ( might be to heavy for a tournament gun)and thinking about having it worked on IF it will improve it? I have shot it out to 600 with mixed results (factory ammo) but have'nt seriously shot it enough maybe 60 rounds, My point is not to brag but that I shoot alot and will a built gun make any diff.?? Remember I know shit nothing about all this but want to extend the distance a couple hundered yards.................Just reread Jaybics post and I got a bit lost here, I really beleive that if you practice ALOT 400 yds is a cake walk and any closer is a piece of cake.... but I missed one at the classic at 60 yds Well I think a good tournament rifle is one you shoot well and are comfortable with and know your limits, rather than just throw one at 'em.Agian this will be interesting

[Prairie Ghost]

First off i'm not a gun guru guy. I hate reloading, didn't make my load my gunsmith did all the legwork for it and gave me the measurements. I shoot a 22-6 now but shot a 204 for a few years and still love that gun! The one thing i know and can attest too is it is a lot more practice then it is the caliber. My longest kill to date is still with my 204.

Jaybic a 22-250 has probably killed more coyotes then any other caliber. Shoot it a lot and it should be fine i think it is a more personal preference thing in a lot of cases.

If you are looking at taking it real serious a 243 AI 22-6 or 6.5 or 6x47 Lapua , 6x284 would all be good ones to look at. You start looking more at wind drift at those long ranges more so then drop. Get a Leupold scope and have a BDC made for your load and you can shoot whatever caliber you want and take care of the drop factor for the times when you have time. Reading the wind correctly and holding for it is the real secret to military snipers making the shots that they do, but they also sit on a range for 8 hours a day because it's their occupation.

I'll be the first to admit i don't practice enough at long ranges. I have the proper range and gongs set up now but still don't practice enough! NO excuses.

Don't be me pick a caliber and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. If you start hitting 9/10 at 300-400 and kill EVERYTHING under 300 you will start placing in every tournament you hunt if you have done your homework on your area.

[DustyC]

Once again I am no gun guru but a buddy of mine is and "I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night." I shoot both the 22-6mmAI and CZ 550 22-250. Ireally like the 22-6 for longer shots. Th BC is abetter. I have only been shooting it for about 7 or 8 months but it does a good job and has really boosted my confidence in long shots since I started making myself shoot it at least 3 shots per day at 500yds. Practice is key but having a gun that can consistantly hit the long shots as also vital. My gun has been hunting coyotes for 30 some years and after seeing what my 22-6 will do he actually had one built, and he loves it. I'ld say rebarrel, blue print the action new trigger and go to shooting.

[bucksnbears]

good topic and input. i to have thought of getting one made just for tournament hunting as i'm only comfortable shooting to about 350 with my 22- 250. i've shot coyotes and fox alot farter but its mostly lucky quess work. the one thing that has kept me from building a speciallty rifle is i hunt mostly for fun(even in the tournament) and don't want to get to seriuos as i think it would take some of the fun out of it if that makes sense???. i still can't coprehend the bdc stuff??? how does every one have time to range and then adjust the scope to the distance when they are constantly moving and aslo multiples coming at different ranges. i have not given serious thought about a new bdc scope because i just don't know they can possible help unless all ranges are pre-known . i can hold on fur out to 350 yards with my 22-250 set at 2.5 high at 100. after that it all guess work. from doing some studying and listening to others i would think PG and Coyotehunter have the perfect long range rifles. however a .257 cal. in a hot cartridge would be the cats ass.

[lyonch]

Jaybic in my personal opininon, it all comes from PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, Then practice come more. I know for myself i did not shoot enough at long ranges this past summer, but enough to feel comfortable to 400 yards as long as the rest was solid. I can promise you Levi and I would have showed up with 0 coyotes on day 2 of the classic if it wasn't for practicing all summer. Dog 1 last year at 305 would have been a miss, dog 2 at 290 would have been a miss, and dog 3 at 260 would have been a miss. I dont care what caliber you shoot, but when you get to 300 plus yards you just need to know what the wind is doing more than what your gun drops. I personally can't wait till i get my BDC knob put on. Grab a gun and stick with it. Get comfortable and PRACTICE. that will take you farther than saying ok guys i have a new gun that can shoot. the gun is only as good as the operator

[LeviM]

Strictly tournament gun, .243, or 22-6!!! All you care about is a dead coyote!!!!!!

[jaybic]

I hear ya lyonch and I actually shoot quite a bit but down here all I get is 300 yards until after all the crops are out and then a relative has a large pasture that goes out to maybe 600 yards. I am a total believer in trigger time and I try to go out to Nodak or Sodak Pd hunting at least twice a year to get out a little farther. I am just thinking that given the same amount of trigger time, moving up to a faster, flatter, better in the wind, and more hard hitting rifle would provide an additional edge. I certainly could be wrong but you guys hunt enough tournaments to know that EVERY edge helps.

My Savage is accurate enough that I dont know that building something fancy will shoot any better. It will just get there faster, flatter, and hit harder. I guess I kinda figure that it increases the chance that on a long shot, a "iffy" hit dog still has a better chance of ending up in the pickup. If I hit a coyote poorly, I still want to hit him with the biggest, nastiest thing I can hit him with. I might be splitting hairs I guess but I really enjoyed my first tournament experience and I am just thinking that if I move up to the biggest hot rod I can get away with, and then put that much practice time in like you said, I will have just upped my chances at placing next year, at least to some degree.

Anyway, thanks for the input fellas, it certainly helps in my research. Its just one more area to do my homework in for the 2011 NDCC and im starting early!!!!

[lyonch]

jaybic i will be in winona this spring calling turkeys for my sister and possible brother in law around the end of april. If we get the birds early we should get together and do some shooting. There are so many things that go with shooting that i like to see how others do it and possibly either give or get a pointer along the way

[Dcoy]

Jaybic,
Assume you got my PM but here are a few more thoughts.Do a bit of reading-books and online sources.(longrangehunting.com is a good start for articles and discussion).Then using your rifle and load do a 'ballistic runout' to say 700 yds in 25 yd increments-not shoot,just run out the calculations.Look carefully at what a 10 or 20 yd error in range estimation will do at 700.Then think about what you described as your 'POS' rangefinder.
Then keeping in mind that range estimation is a problem that you at least have a little control over(educated guess may be a better label even with the best rangefinders at 700 yds-especially in most terrain settings)consider the wind calculations.Even with a pure 90 degree wind at the muzzle,think about how many different 'winds'(speed,angle,direction)you must dope between the muzzle and 'Wiley' some 700 yards away.Then,for the heck of it,run the same calcs with your proposed wing bang souped up sniper rifle and compare.
At this point consider if you really want to shoot??????For a number of reasons do you really want to shoot even in a tourney?Dam few really should is my 2 cents if they are honest with themselves.

[jaybic]

Sounds great! Lets do it. If its before the crops go in, I might be able to hook us up with a place where we can get out aways. Last year I built a gong with a metal plate about coyote vitals size so we could put it out at unknown distances and get some real field shooting type practice in. I might learn sumpin too!

Jaybic

[jaybic]

Dcoy,

I understand what your saying fo sure. I use a Sierra infinity ballistic software program and have printed out the tables and I know that if you range a coyote at 690 yards and he is really at 700, the difference is an extra 5 inches of drop which is just about the size of a coyotes vitals top to bottom. Thats quite probably a clean miss and not even factoring in wind yet. What I am trying to do is minimize that drop factor out to about 400 yards so I can focus on wind and hopefully up my hit percentages and eventually, I would love to learn my rifle and wind-reading well enough to perhaps take some of those longer shots. When I go PD hunting, I shoot almost exclusively off shooting sticks just because thats what I shoot off coyote hunting. I dont know if I will ever kill a coyote at 700+ yards but what I do want to do is be dang deadly out to 400 yards and I think with knoweldge, lots of practice and the right gear, that is not unrealistic. I hope!

PG, all I shoot is Leupold scopes and the one I use most is a VX3-4.5x14 with the varmint hunter reticle. All my other ones have Stoney Point Target turrets on them which is a sort of BDC knob. I have my 22-50 load dialed in quite well and do want to have Leupold make me a custom BDC knob for it so I could use the reticle or the BDC, which ever gave me the best chance for a first round hit.

My biggest weakness for sure is actually knowing what a 400 or 500 yard coyote looks like because ya just dont see enough around here to get a good eye for it, which is why having a good reliable rangefinder is important to me and my Leupold rangefinder is just not making the grade.

Anyway, good points everyone and thanks for the help.

Jaybic

[Tbush]

Chartes and soft ware you guys are way past me I just shoot alot,.. kind of like my bow and arrow, I shoot a recurve with no sights and no range finder, I;ll go shoot the bow out to 150 yds and miss alot then my senses take over and I can at least get an arrow into a foot circle3 out of 8 times then when I back down to 20 -30 yds and shoot it seems easier?? same thing happens when I shoot my rifle, If I can hit 3 balloons at 600 then 3 at 400 are confidently easier, if you throw a ball enough times you don;t have to range it your mind does it for you, last year I did buy a range finder, but I'm getting to dependant of it and loosing my instinces a bit I used to range coyotes just with my scope out to 400, at 6 power if the coyote fit between the center cross hair and were it went a heavier duplex it was 400, if it filled the duplex side to side 300, Do you kind of get what I used to do before a range finder and it worked out to 400 for me