LeviM wrote:we never pass up a shot, hes just saying its alot easier to get them close! if there out there 800 yards sitting on their ass for 30minutes, I guarantee hes shooting!!
Oh yeah i have been known to blaze at them if they refuse to come in, its just a lot more efficient in a tournament (since thats what i do the most is tournaments) to kill them close and grab and go, instead of walking an extra 2 miles to retrieve the coyote all along your partner is waiting for you and your also burning up energy that on day two of a two day tournament you might start to get a little sloppy with what your doing if you get too tired. I know i do
Chris Lyon
My mind belongs to my work,
My heart belongs to my family,
BUT MY SOUL BELONGS TO THE COYOTES!!!
DeanO, you are correct young man, had I had all the new gizmo's etc at your age and someone buying the stuff like we have, being able to find what works and what is BS makes a big difference. Also the huge advantage of having guys who are willing to share information to the younger guys starting out would make a huge difference in shorting the learning curve.
We did it with time in the field with far worse equipment and a whole lot of want to!!! 20 years ago I would have never thought I would have the equipment I have today, both for work and of my own. Times have changed for sure.
The drawback now is if plan A doesn't work now for the less experienced guy, he does not have a plan B thru Z. He's stumped and asking questions. He went from i got it all figured out to "what happened". Where the more experienced etc just keeps grindin away.
I will give one example etc. Beings it's a holiday etc. roads plugged, don't want to go scoop snow real quick etc. etc.
These pics are from a lamb kill, in an area that is called as much if not more than anywhere we all know. It has a lot of public land in it, easy access if you want. We also have a few tournaments left here and the area is hunted in these tournaments so I do not want to take a wide swath thru the area with the plane and have an uproar but I do want to stop any killing immediately. Snares and traps would require some real imagination to get and keep working so calling is the quickest and most effective method to remove the coyotes around the sheep quickly.
The wind would not cooperate, I only have about 5-6 stand locations in this chunk of land, I know it very well and have to work it sideways and then back into it to get the wind right. I know these are not virgin called coyotes, these are river ice veterans, normal calling squences etc will not work for the most part. Getting in undetected is the first problem, proper stand selection to kill was does come in because you are only going to get one shot at them is the next. Back up one here, checking the rifle before any of this to make sure it is still on. Ranging around the stand location before any sound was played to become familar with what is how far, again this may be the only shot at these coyotes. No dilly dallying on the ridge before sitting down, glassin before you sound off to see if they happen to be somewhere where you need to move to or if they come it will not work because of wind terrain etc. You already anticipate where you will shoot the coyotes and set up accordingly, may or may not happen but usually does. Experience.
Then the actual calling, you go thru a series of calls that allows for the most timid spooky coyotes to respond to first incresing in volume and intensity til you move into more agressive sequences to invoke more agressive coyote reactions. These stands are long 30-60-minutes and some 30-45 minute longer working a coyote that has respond but it hesitant to come to rifle range. Then you must MAKE THE SHOT.
I would say this was a 2 mile by 3 mile chunk, I have taken multiple coyotes each time in, even a fox which was holed about 150 yards from the sheep. Still are some coyotes around there and there always will be but no more killing happening. Another part of the problem here is that the sheep place has hundreds of pheasants around it, some alive some dead. Tracks have stopped showing for now in the snow near the sheep etc. I still have a pair in an area of that chunk I want to hit, very distinctive howls etc. I always get other coyotes to show before these on the stand for them. Sooner or later it may happen.
I try my best to harvest as many coyotes in close proximity to the sheep without effecting the tournament callers. Now tournament s are over we are nearing calving some already starting, lambing going on, etc. Now we have a job to do in a very large district so we have to get to it.
This area produced coyotes on the same stands multiple times, that coyote in the pic well there are 2 more dead ones just to the right over the first big knob from a previous trip. Dead coyotes don't get any smarter. These coyotes don't need to be any smarter. No coyotes were shot at and missed, not all coyotes that responded to the call were killed but none were shot at and missed. Some responded from over 2 miles away on the ice, passing coyotes going away from coyotes leaving from the close responding coyotes being shot. Numerous times there would be 3 different distances of coyotes coming, close, medium and far. The gun shot would spook the middle but the far ones were still to far out to spook from it. The river ice is consantly booming banging etc. These were not your ideal days to call, windy some days, fog, cold,etc.
Things done and used on these stands sound wise are totally unique to each coyote or coyotes. You remember what you hear and see for the next time. You learn more from live coyotes than you ever will from dead ones. I could now just about count the number left and where they are. You always have the Nomads on the ice and i do create voids for them to stay but the residents left are accounted for.
The coyote to coyote interaction on the ice is very interesting to watch, some run staight thru other coyotes, some run out to avoid coyotes. Others still leave immediately when they hear a howl. Others howl back all day and move off, others howl and stand their ground or move forward, some gather in groups at a howl, some howl at the first sound of distress, warning howls, challenging howls, body language, submissive, dominant, do they leave the whole area or do they circle, may lead one to believe it is a claimed territory. Some know your there before you even start. Lots of noise to get into the country. The majority of this infomation can not be explained on a computer but is in a persons head that clicks on when you see certain things in the field. It's not exact but close.
I think this may go along with the decoy dog deal when you are dealing with ADC and recreational calling, tornament calling, and the differences inbetween. Fun days vs. work days! Always good conversation thou.
Govenor hope I gave you something worth reading. Better go scoop. I luv winter!!
Tim with that 17pred, I'd say that 400yds is extreme long range shooting. What grain bullet are you using in that thing? 30g or so? that's some nice work.
xdeano: Yes i'm useing the 30 gr. at a vel. of 3900-3950 fps. And thanks..
On most of my stands the 17 Pred. seems to be perfect for the job and i do get a few runners but they don't go far. I've only done a few contests but know most guys want a cartridge that shoots fast and flat and puts the coyote down right there and also has enough steam to do it at longer distances but with these type of cartridges you also get more recoil and with more recoil you end up looseing youre site picture and not seeing the hit or it takes a little longer to get back on target... This is one of the reasons why i don't use my 22-250 ackley very often..
I've had a few custom guns built and through trial and error i've finally found what works well for me and is comfortable to shoot...
I still take a few long shots from time to time, bad habbits are hard to break.LOL
Randy told me once if i don't have a decent shot on a coyote i should just let it walk and i have been doing just that in the last two seasons and it is really paying off for me.. I can still come back later and bring these coyotes back in. Makes calling alot of fun..
I have a few video's i posted with the Pred. in action if you have'nt seen them yet go take a look.. Later..
I'll definitely agree with a lot on the last couple posts.
First off I'm young, but I have a lot of wisdom for my age. I wouldn't have the job I have if I couldn't show the people in charge why they hired me.
When Plan A breaks, runs out of batteries, I always have plan B. For ranging I'm very proficient in Mil ranging. And I always have a backup printed rangecard inside my scope cap out to 600yds. My range card was written up from actually hits at those ranges. I to didn't start with all the gear queer stuff, but it sure as hell helps when time is vital, and if you use it, it isn't queer. We still have crap for equipment up here, I've been using my own since I already have it. No sense in checking out equipment that'll stay in the safe.
I'll wait on a shot if it is on killing grounds also, why mess things up. Letting a dog live another day isn't as bad as it sounds. He's dead already, he just doesn't know it.
Tim, that little bugger is screaming out there. I'll agree with the larger pills, creates larger recoil, and loss of sight picture. I have a cure for that too. suppressor!
Gotta love winter Randy, how much snow did you guys end up with? We ended up with just enough to cover the windshield.
xdeano
“It’s better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb.” -Mussolini
A suppressor would be nice but can't use it here and for the little bit of calling i do in the Dakotas it dose'nt really pay to have one. After the price of buying one and the permit/lic. fee's i would rather just have a few more rifles built instead.. The report from my 17 cal.s dose'nt seem to bother them much unless they are right on top , another reason why i like them for calling...
Tim,
suppressors are legal to use on any legal animal in SD. That means deer, coyotes, any.... It's the same as here in ND. Private citizens can own and use suppressors legally in SD, same as here in ND. There are other reasons why I have one, the fact of hearing protection, muzzle jump, increased accuracy caused by weight, the list goes on.
They're not as expensive as you think. it's only about the cost of a single rifle. but it takes care of a lot of problems. Yeah I know gear queer... you don't need it, but It sure as hell helps when you have a couple of groups of coyotes like Randy had just depicted in his killer story. when you get groups of dogs coming in very spriatic, it sure shines. A friend reciently shot a double quad in one morning. Let me explain, that's 4 dogs on one stand, then went to another stand shot another 4 dogs. 8 dogs in 2 stands. They work and that doesn't happen very often.
one down fall is It doesn't help the weight of the rifle, an extra 19oz or so.
xdeano
“It’s better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb.” -Mussolini
xdeano Here in Mn. i can't even have the barrel threaded for one, so if i did have one made up i would have to leave it in S.D.. I was at the V.H. jamborre this year and a dealer was there trying to sell them and i was just going off of his price and what he said the lic. would cost..
I called in and killed my first thriple this year with the 17 Pred, the first one shot was the farthest out and the other two where around 100 yds out. The 17 did'nt seem to bother them and where more interested in the screaming. It could come in handy for those larger groups thats for sure, but I'm not that good at working with that many yet. Most of my calling is solo so i have to do it all ...
I thought you lived in SD for some reason Tim, I'm sorry for the miss understanding. The cost for the tax stamp (license) is a one time deal of $200. It's kind of steep but I know that If it works and I get to keep my hearing the 1K now will save me a lot more in the future, with hearing aids etc. Who was the dealer at VH? I'm usually alone also, I some times like it better that way.
The Ultimate Tournament rifle should also include a lot of range time, if you can't shot as well as half the potential of the rifle it's of no use.
I'll throw out another thing for the guys who are interested in shooting long range is get in touch with a good range and shoot F-class during the summer. I'll teach you more lessons than you can dream of. Breathing, trigger control, wind estimation and compensation, it'll help you out in the long run. Also dry firing in the house on cold windy winter days is another good method to hone that finger.
xdeano
“It’s better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb.” -Mussolini
jaybic wrote: He pretty much said to ditch the ARs(trying to win by firepower)and get something that really cooks so you can hold "on fur" as far out as possible. he told me "dont worry about the 15th shot, worry about the 1st one
Sounds like a smart guy.
Ive said the same thing ever since the "AR craze" hit all these budding coyote callers. They all say the same thing, "I have 19 quick follow ups", my usual retort is "if you make the first one count, you dont need '19 quick follow-ups'".
The AR's can be extremely accurate, but theyll never hold a candle to a fine bolt gun. After working with and competing with the AR platform for a decade now as an armorer I will go out on a limb and say the most difficult thing about them is KEEPING them accurate. They are touchy, as all the semi-auto platforms are. (I am IN LOVE with the M14, same problems as the AR, but I still NEEEEEEED ONE!)
As with anything practice is of the utmost importance. A guy that is highly deadly with a .223 will kill more coyotes than an un-practiced weekend warrior gunner and a .300 UM. But, caliber shouldnt be completely overlooked. I always say, choose the correct tool for the job. Just as a .223 isnt the "ideal" deer caliber (however it WILL kill deer), the .204, .17 rem, .222 and such, IMO, arent the best tools for a dedicated coyote gun. All will of course kill a coyote, but their performance slides on less than ideal hits. Im of the thought, plan for the worst. Murphys law WILL rear his ugly head, and id rather have a larger caliber at my disposal when he does. Even if the larger caliber only buys me an extra second for a better follow up shot on a poor first hit, its worth it in my opinion. Ive just seen to many coyotes tear off seemingly unfazed from the "smaller" calibers that I know, with a .22-250, 6mm Rem, .243 etc etc would have either A)been hurt to bad to go anywhere, or B) had the wind knocked out of em long enough for a reasonable follow up. I treat coyotes like I treat Haji. When I pull the trigger, I want them down and out right now. I want to move on to other available targets and not have to worry about it getting up and running away (or getting up and shooting back at me). Caliber (and bullet type) does play a role, but it doesn't overshadow practice.
As for the "ultimate" tournament rifle. I would have to say a rifle that magically causes all the other teams pickups to stall out on the way to check-in.
(Im also one of those guys that really hopes the military scraps the .223......its just not enough gun for putting humans down quick and hard in situations where its you or them......as they've learned in recent years)
your going to see the same thing with a 22-6 as you will a fast runnin 22-250 that is finding a reliable bullet that will hold together on mis placed shots meaning bone!!! My suggestion is a .243 or .243 AI with heavy for caliber bullets 90 grain+ these are built for mid sized game and will do a dandy job killin a coyote dead and if you hit bone no worries for sure.
great posts................No problems with the .22-6mm hitting bone and not killing coyotes. I have shot close to 5000 rounds through a .22-6mm. Zero complaints.
How many barrels have you gone thru with your 22-6? I heard they are some barrel burners of the first order and I have thought about rebarreling my 22-250 in that cal for tourney hunting. Just curious.
I got around 2500 rounds on that first barrel and was shooting a 68 gr Harnady at around 3700 fps at 834 ft elevation. on this second barrel I am shoot 3500 fps with the 69 gr at about 4700 ft elevation. 100 fps is about a 1" at 500 yards so the velocity is not that big of a deal and of no concern with you know your yardage. It will get better barrel life if I am not trying to straighten the rifleing out. you need flatter shooting rifles when you do not know the distance. I can not say it kills coyotes any deader than any other .22 caliber out there but I do not have cripples on good shots (and even most bad shots) it hits real hard, bucks the wind better than most and extremely accurate round. I love it and will always own one.
suppressor!
