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Near wind/ Far Wind?

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Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Prairie Ghost » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:43 pm

Good topic for you wind dopers i will chime in when i can but what do ya think? What is more important the wind and the shooter or the wind at the target? Yes i know we can go a whole lot deeper in to all the wind in between but that will come. Near or Far?
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby leadbiscuit » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:01 pm

You know PG, I'm really not sure.

On one hand, I'm tempted to say the wind at the rifle. The bullet starts at an angle and carries it all the way to the target. On the other hand a wind that acts on a bullet downrange is acting on a bullet that may have already slowed down quite a bit. We all know that how well a bullet retains velocity is a big part of how well a bullet bucks the wind. Like I said, I just don't know for sure.

I do know it's a lot harder to guess wind speed and direction downrange than at the rifle. Shooting across large draws can do all kinds of funny stuff to a bullet. Up, down, left or right, It's hard to tell until you let one fly or have a scope clear enough to read mirage with. I'm interested to see were you're headed with this. Most of my wind doping is done instinctively rather than with charts.

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:12 am

It's neither!

It's your middle wind you guys. That's where the bullet is in flight the longest and thus is effected the greatest.

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Prairie Ghost » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:42 am

Your bullet is going the slowest in the far wind thus the wind has more "time" to put effect on the bullet. Does that make a bigger difference? tough to say.

Middle wind is a viable way to look at it and take the middle wind by reading mirage to get sort of an average.

The Near wind can move the bullet a 1/4 inch at 75yds from the barrel and that bullet will travel on that deviated path for the next 600yds equaling a large movement by time it gets to the target

All good food for thought if your into to reading and doping wind
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:41 am

It's still going to be your middle wind that will make the most difference in bullet flight. This is a known fact, and you can ask any of the bench shooters or anyone who's been around a 1000yd range much, middle wind makes the difference.

Go over to SnipersHide, or LongrangeHunting.com and ask the same question. I'm sure you'll get 100 answers. I thought that my near wind was the biggest factor, but I've since changed my mind after shooting through canyons and valleys.

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Tim Anderson » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:01 pm

Pretty tuff to figure out what the wind is doing in the middle or even at the target so I don't worry about it much..
I look at the weather for the day I'm hunting and get a update on wind speed and direction and thats what I go by and any shots way out there with a 20 mph wind is a crap shoot at best...
I do shoot out at the range on different days with different wind speeds to get a good idea of what the bullet is doing at different yardages and find that by dialing in for wind all I need is 1-2" out to 800 yds. Most stands don't give me much time so I just dial in elavation and use different points on the coyotes body for windage, shoot and if a miss just adjust or aim for next point...

Edit to add: It really helps to have a fast shooting cartridge that moves the bullet right along, less time of flight less time for the wind to affect bullet travel...


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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Prairie Ghost » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:37 pm

Tim- what are you shooting that you are only getting 1-2" of wind drift out to 800yds??

"it helps to shoot a fast bullet" Tim if you read some of Bryan Litz stuff he shows with data that shooting a lower BC bullet faster than a high BC bullet you really have to have a big difference in speed the slower bigger bullet is going to outperform the little screamer in the wind.

Dean what are you considering your middle wind? On say a 600yd shot? Is it the wind at 300yds or everything in between the end of the barrel and surface of the target? I guess we probably need to define these things before we go much further with this.
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Tim Anderson » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:26 am

Tim- what are you shooting that you are only getting 1-2" of wind drift out to 800yds??


My mistake should say 41-42 clicks or 10 M.O.A.

"it helps to shoot a fast bullet" Tim if you read some of Bryan Litz stuff he shows with data that shooting a lower BC bullet faster than a high BC bullet you really have to have a big difference in speed the slower bigger bullet is going to outperform the little screamer in the wind.

Yes you are correct about a heavier bullet but I'm hunting coyotes not deer so heavy is out...
A 69 gr. bullet vrs. a 52 gr. is roughly 2 MOA difference in wind drift, but if you are dialing it in then an extra 2 MOA is'nt to difficult to add on what you already dialed..
When hunting with the guys I do get the chance to shoot out to 800 yds. but the guys would get pissed if I did, so I don't do it with them, most times its 500 yds or less. When hunting with the guys we try to keep the shots to a minimum for safety and not to get the coyote all worked up, makes getting them a little easier..
When calling or hunting alone most shots are under 600 yds so I don't worry about dialing in windage just elavation and hold on fur..

Edit to add: You can't figure the hold or dial for middle wind or long wind cause you don't know what it is and have no way to measure all you can do is dial windage for what the wind is doing that day according to a wind meter or the weather station..
Say you are at the bottom of were two drainages intersect(fork) the wind will be greater there than farther out into the drainage its-self, so the best you can do is dial for the wind speed where you are standing at the time as the bullet will be affected more at this point than farther along.
If you are sitting just below a hill then you will need to know what the avr. wind speed is for the area you are in for that day and dial in for that on a longer shot due to the bullet not being affected at the muzzle but farther out..
In most cases you will have to dial in to as close as you can get then fire a spoiler shot and hope you can see were the bullet hit and then adjust from there if the coyote sticks around long enough..
Years ago I shot a redfox at 767 yds with my 22-250 ackley, it took two shots to get elavation and 3 shots for windage and I got the fox on the 5th shot.. The only reason I got it was cause it did'nt know were to run so it just pased back and fourth..


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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Prairie Ghost » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:11 am

Tim you should be able to tell what the wind is doing down range to a certain degree by reading the wind indicators in the field. If you have tackeled that art...I've been working on that part of my education for a little while and it is time consuming. :x
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:43 am

You guys should be able to read the wind at your target if there are any indicators and their usually is, ie grass, leaves, dust, light snow... To figure out what you're middle wind is, just pick a spot half way and look at some grass quick. Or better yet you can take your fine parallax adjustment, if you have it, and dial it half of what your target is and take a look. Just think of valleys and hills as an obstical course, and think of air flow as water. Think of what water would do if it was flowing down a drain from a certain direction and how it would be effected by the landscape.

Remember the wind direction isn't always the same at your far target as it is close, so if your far is moving in one direction and close is moving in the opposite, they can cancel each other out. if you're sitting at the edge of a draw, watch out for updrafts, this is something that is usually over looked, as well as down drafts in the opposite side of the draw.

If you're shooting at greater than about 600yds you're going to have to take into account spin drift of the bullet and how that effects the trajectory of the bullet and how that acts on air flow also. For those with fast twist rifles you'll see more drift at shorter distances then say a 12 twist. Most rifles are right had twist so the bullet will spin to the right and down due to gravity. So say if you have a wind coming across your bullet path that is from left to right, it'll actually increase the spin of the bullet into the right direction and down due to both gravity and bullet spin. The bullet will end up in the 4 oclock area if you were thinking of it as a clock. The opposite would be true if you had a right to left wind, The bullet is still spinning in a right hand direction with a counter wind it will tip the bullet to the left and up into about the 10 oclock position. Just think of it as adding and subtracting from the deflection of the bullet. If you're adding to the deflection (ie left to right) it's going to go further right, if your subtracting from the deflection (ie. right to left), it'll go left. So it will take more left wind to cancel out the bullet spin, but it will still act on the bullet at a 90 degree and the bullet will still land slightly higher. I hope that makes sense.

But something that most people over look is having a canted scope. This will handicap a guy more than spin drift at extended ranges. Then if you are shooting and 1000yds you should be taking into effect of coriolis drift, which at that distance isn't but a quarter of what your spin drift would be. So if you were to take a no wind shot in the vacuum of space the bullet would still not take a straight line course.

All these little factors play a huge part in making some of those long shots accurately and consistently.

xdeano
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby lyonch » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:00 am

Very good topic Prairighost!! I am no expert at reading wind by any means as my first disclaimer, but i do take note how strong the wind feels everyday i am out and about in the field. I always consider the value of the wind first and foremost. Rather that be full value, half, quarter, etc etc. Then i try to determine how hard the wind is blowing. I do this as accurately as my experiences in the field tell me, than adjust accordingly after looking at my drift chart on my gun.

I can honestly say that i would have never took a thought to the middle of a bullets flight path to have the greatest effect on a bullet. I have always looked at a bullets flight much like and arc when it is deflected by wind. This tells me that as a bullet gets closer to the target, the more drift or horizontal deflection the bullet should experience.

Keep the great comments coming!! I will be taking notes on this subject :D
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Tim Anderson » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:55 am

P-G. yep your right it does pay to pay attension to what the grass or weeds are doing In my case though most of my shooting is done in open country were the wind is pretty consistant through out the range I intend to shoot so I don't have to do a whole lot of guessing..


Xdeano. Good points and info but is a coyote going to sit around long enough for a shooter to figure it all out?????
I have a book laying around somewhere that has most of the info for dopeing the wind and what things to take in consideration and formulas, its just not practicle for hunting but good to know anyway..


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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:21 pm

Tim, I don't know about you but if i have a coyote out there a long ways, and doesn't want to come in, i have plenty of time. It only happens a few times during the winter that they hang up far enough out to actually take the time to figure it all out. But it pays knowing how to do it.

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Prairie Ghost » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:55 pm

I would agree if the coyote is hung up and doesn't want to come any further most of the time they sit on their ass and as long as you call every once in awhile they will stay there as long as you need. In the spring with chicken shit coyotes that won't fight the dogs you have hours if you want them sometimes.

Dean lets keep this to the wind i was going to go into the spin drift/ coreolis ect ect on another topic after this one all good stuff to think about i agree.
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:39 pm

what more is there to say? wind does some funny crap and it's your biggest variable to overcome. You have to go shoot in it to understand it. You can't just read a book and figure it out.

Correction Factor for wind at angles other than 90 degrees
Angle Effect
10º 17%
20º 34%
30º 50%
40º 64%
50º 77%
60º 87%
70º 94%
80º 98%
90º 100%

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