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Near wind/ Far Wind?

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:15 pm

we could talk about how BC is effected by wind.

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Prairie Ghost » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:23 pm

Well for one, not everyone that is reading gets to shoot a rifle for a living so when you make comments like watch for updraft and downdraft a good deal of people reading don't know what the hell you are talking about because they don't get to shoot enough to give a damn. Explain a little better your point of view instead of continuing on to the Coreolis effect which for 99.9% of coyotes hunters is useless information unless they are shooting a 50 cal and trying to get in a real long shot to make a club.

Do you look at the updrafts from expierience and know what it is going to do? Are you reading the mirage to see you updraft or down draft and getting an idea of how much there is?

Reading wind in the field. Do you use the find adjustment to read mirage more or are you using a basic chart of field indicators like:

0-3mph Hardly felt on face, smoke will drift

3-5mph Slightly felt on face

5-8mph leaves on trees in constant motion

8-12mph Blows dust and loose paper

12-15mph Small tree will sway

Myself i like the basic chart but only because i haven't had the time to read mirage and test it enough to be real comfortable with it yet.

Do you like to try to read wind in mph or in MOA different people will debate which one is better to learn.
- Personnally i like mph because i'm more accustomed to it and i have a chart that will give me clicks for mph so it's just easier for me.

What i guess i'm trying to say is this topic is for people to learn from and there is a lot more to say about reading and doping for the wind.
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:06 am

Reading mirage can be tricky if you don't know what you're looking at. It has a lot to do with getting your parallax set right in your scope and being able to see the vapor rise up off the ground.

Think of it like a ditch fire, where the smoke is coming up and over the road. actually similar concept as vapor.

Straight up = zero wind also know as boiling. if wind is blowing towards or away from you, you won't have to worry about it, because it'll still be a zero wind and the mirage will look more loose or wavy.

tipped to one side or the other at say 65 degrees the wind will blow the vapor at about 2-3 mph. it'll look slightly whippy. Sorry i can't explain what that looks like better.

if mirage is tipped 45 or more it's in that 4-8mph or so. It waves and whips

if it's more than 45 degrees it's kind of a crap shoot, but 8-12mph i'd guess. it'll basically be layed on it's side. the wind could be deceiving if you have a half value wind blowing it away or toward you, it can really mess a guy up. But that's when have to rely on knowing kind of what way the wind is coming from, even with your middle wind.

To find out what your middle wind or any wind in between just pull your parallax on your scope back and forth at either a half way point in your parallax or a give point on the ground.

If you're shooing at a long distance where all this wind stuff will become more important, remember that your bullet arcs several feet higher than just a straight line from a to b. And often times that bullet will interact with a different wind then what you're looking at on the ground. That's why at matches those range flags are up on a high pole and not 4 feet off the ground. It's fine if the first and last ones were at 4 feet off the ground but it's the middle ones that need to be looked at to see if they are still blowing in the same direction as all the others. Shooting through a valley is kind of the same predicament, because wind will flow down a drainage and up the sides, around the corners, swirl and cut back at any point in there.

The only way to learn how to read wind is to shoot in it. That means actually going out on windy days to see what your bullet will do, not just shoot on those nice 60 degree days with slight overcast and no wind. You don't learn anything then. All that being said, never rely totally on mirage, have a second way to reading wind to back it up like watching leaves, trees, grass etc.

There is a lot to learn when doping wind and it'll mess you up more often then not. There is no perfect way of measuring it. Just get out and practice.

As far as reading wind in moa over mph, just keep it simple. mph works just fine why complicate it. "keep it simple stupid" ;)

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:15 am

I want to touch on wind meters, or anemometers. You don't need them, because they only tell you the velocity of the wind at your location. That's great to start off with but it doesn't do you a hill of beans at 600yds. So those who choose to use them, remember to watch wind at your target and in between. I've had several and I don't use them any more, i actually sold them all. A person can become a "gear queer" with all the gadgets and gismos out on the market. When the batteries die, all you have is something to weigh you down.

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:39 am

Here are a couple of wind charts to give you some idea. I got these from a guy that i use to shoot with. Both show what a wind will do to a bullet, if shot out of a right twist barrel, it depicts both wind and spin drift on a bullet, they are related and should be talked about in the same sentence. I hope this kind of helps to illustrate what i was trying to write earlier on in the thread. It took me a while to find these in my computer.

For example pic wind #3 (full value wind from the right), with a right twist barrel, the spin drift of the bullet will force the bullet right, but with wind it acts like a top because the tip of the bullet is more susceptible to a directional force. This will force the bullet to be pushed left and the gyroscopicing bullet will pull it up, landing the bullet in the upper left corner of your target. So to compensate you'll need to drop your bullet 1 MOA down and 4 MOA right into the wind. (these are just example numbers to keep thing simple). This will put you on your target. This target really doesn't depict the exact landing spot of the bullet, it's just a diagram. Compensation is usually a 1/4 ratio with a full value wind. The bottom drawing depicts this a little better.

Image

Image

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:47 am

I hope you guys are learning something. If you have questions please pipe up.

If you want those diagrams on your computer just copy them, they may come in hand at one point in time. i'm sure they'll just get lost in forum limbo after a while.

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby barebackjack » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:11 pm

Wind conditions and their importance in relation to drift........

Most important......middle ranges.

Second most........at the target.

Least important......at the muzzle.

Yes, wind at the muzzle, if strong enough, can get the bullet moving off on the "wrong track" immediately. But, being that this wind is AT THE SHOOTER, and thus the easiest to dope accurately, it is the least important. Not to mention, speed is at maximum, flight time is short, and BC is highest at closer ranges.

Doping wind at the target and in your middle ranges is infinitely harder, thus the degree of accuracy will be less than the wind at the shooter. Not to mention, flight time is increasing, the bullet is shedding velocity and hence, dropping in BC, and is loosing rotational energy.



Utilizing mirage to dope middle ranges is for me, one of the easiest methods. The key is to adjust paralax on the mirage, not the target. And there are very few days where theres no mirage.
Last edited by barebackjack on Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby lyonch » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:13 pm

I am learning alot xdeano!! It is taking some time to try and digest this all, but i greatly appreciate you going as in depth as you are!! There is a ton of information to chew on for a bit before i toss out a question. I'm sure my pea sized brain will come up with something :mrgreen:
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Prairie Ghost » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:20 pm

Great post Dean and thanks for the charts i will be back to discuss when i have more time.

Bareback good point on importance of the different wind ranges.
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby lyonch » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:17 am

Ok now that i have digested some of this and the charts were a huge help, is the direction those charts show a direct relation to the strength of the wind? For example if i am shooting a coyote at at 400 yards with a wind directly in my face at lets say 10 mph, the chart says i will shoot low. Now if that wind bucks up to 20 mph will i shoot twice as low as if i was shooting into a 10 mph wind?
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Coyotehunter » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:23 am

good topic.
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby xdeano » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:16 pm

Your 12 and 6 oclock wind isn't going to push the bullet very far off. For example on my 308 shooting 155g Lapua at 2825fps the difference between 10mph wind and a 20mph wind at 12 oclock is about .5 MOA at 1000yds or about 5 inches. My elevation correction at 400yds is 6.25MOA @ 10mph 12oclock, 6.30MOA @ 20MOA. It doesn't make a hill a beans at 400, so no ill effect.

I wouldn't worry to much about your 12 and 6 winds, unless you're going to shoot 800 or more.

Great question though.

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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Prairie Ghost » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:13 pm

I'm curious of the guys on here FOR COYOTE HUNTING are using wind charts and clicking on their long shots? Kentucky Windage with a chart, or just don't pay attention to the wind at all?

Dean i would disagree on the Anemometers or "wind meters" Someone that is going to try to learn to read mirage or read the in the field material needs to be able to check the wind and know what it is blowing. Reading the wind with your indicators and then checking it with an istrument is a real good way to learn how to read the wind. If not you're hoping the weather man was right and we all know how often that happens.
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby Coyotehunter » Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:24 pm

In a lot of situations you do not have a great visual indicator for the wind. I always carry a windage gage and have for many years.
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Re: Near wind/ Far Wind?

Postby barebackjack » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:55 pm

Coyotehunter wrote:In a lot of situations you do not have a great visual indicator for the wind. I always carry a windage gage and have for many years.


I also carry one, but it never leaves the truck.

Ill use it in between sets, or quick check the wind before I leave the truck to make a set. Its a good way to get a good "baseline" on what the wind is doing. Any final tweaks are done in the scope, as the shot develops.

The problem with electronic devices, is beginners will use them as a crutch (I feel the same way with electronic calls, rookies believe them to be cure alls). The last few civilians ive tried to coach in long range shooting (and admittedly, im a piss poor teacher when I cant make em do rifle PT when they dont listen :mrgreen: ) have immediately gone out and purchased wind meters, and are really struggling in understanding, and dealing with wind. They get frustrated trying to make on the fly wind calls, that after a while they just give up, use the wind meter, and call it "close enough".

Wind meters are great at establishing a general baseline for wind conditions, and obviously, will give you a precise wind speed at your location (the least important location for long range precision shooting), but to truly get good at reading wind (it IS an art form), one has to eventually leave the wind meter and home and get out and use their head.

Same with rangefinders and archery, the "art" of range estimation is dead in archery. Well, what happens if the batteries die???

The number one tool in a shooters arsenal is his head.

Wind is frustrating as hell, especially for beginners. Ive been shooting long range for quite a while, and am professionally trained, and theres STILL days I feel like just wrapping the rifle barrel around a fence post and taking up badminton.


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