Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

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coyotelatrans
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by coyotelatrans »

Pilgrim nailed it! You have a higher BC bullet and the time of flight to 500 yards takes longer than the 55 grain bullet, but the higher BC bullet is less effected even though it starts off slower and takes longer to get to the 500 yard mark! The drift differance is far better with a high BC bullet. You also have to factor in barrel wear for what ever it means to you! Throat errosion is a concern in some calibers due to case design, you can counter that by running a slower load and extend barrel life as well.

Drop to me is a constant that is better controlled than drift by far!!! We know the range with a range finder and we know will be, far greater than what is that wind doing at 400,500 or 600 yards? What it is doing at our feet/face doesn't mean that is what is happening downrange! To me I have more confidance in a bullet with more drop than drift! I can make up for drop far greater than guess the wind at 1,500 ft downrange be it a target or a coyote!

I guess it comes down to what does those coyotes past 350 yards mean to you, oh forget them call another day or I need to kill this coyote for what ever reason. My longest coyote is 586 yards not to brag but to tell you I needed this coyote dead as it was killing and another day meany another dead sheep. I had witness with I had a 10 MPH cross wind and this coyote was comming no closure. I shot the first time and elevation dead on missed on the wind by inches, second shot dead in the center of the chest. At that range the coyote didn't spook, but I did that with a 22-250 and a 52 grain amax at 3,700 fps. I learned from that windage is more key than elevation and that is when I started to look over the whole long range shooting thing. I since have switched to a .243 as it retains more energy at longer ranges and I can up my BC by going to bigger bullets.

Also plug in those same bullets and increase the wind by even 3-5 MPH and see how that alters there down range performance! If you have 10 mph what at 500 yards and the time it takes to make a good shot? Could you have a gust of 3-5 mph? I say yes as I have had it happen ,the bigger high BC will bve less effected. I have shot 8 coyotes past 400 yards in the last 12 months ones I know would not come any closer 3 off of sticks the longest was 429 and the rest laying prone with a harris bi pod and accu shot mono pod longest 472, I have missed only 1 again not bragging but long range practice on coyote silouttes is something I shoot at at least 1 time per month and most 2 times per month, the more you do it and get breathing, a solid platform be it off of stick or a bi pod and good trigger mechanics has sure made a differance for me.

Use what makes you happy I just maintain there is a differance on those longer rnage coyotes between a fast small bullet and a heavier higher BC bullet. Drop again is more constant than drift. If drop as a big issue our military would be usiong hot little numbers for sniper work they don't as drift is something much harder to over come as the range increases. Doesn't matter the target! Also the last on these numbers energy in ft lbs the 55 grain nosler over 4,00fps at 500 yards is 646.7 and the 95 berger at 2,900 fps is 902.6 that is a big differance in impact to me and I'll take the harder impact as the rnage increases as well. Also another neat number is you start off at 4050fps with the 55 grainer and at 500 yards your down to 2301.4 fps and for the 95 berger at 2,900 fpd starting at 500 yards your at 2068.8fps so tell me which is more efficant as it travles down range? You loose 1749 fps with the 55 grainer and you loose 832 fps with the 95 grain bullet!

This thread could go on and on but my point being in a given caliber and if you have the opportunity to take/make longer shots on critters then a higher BC bullet per caliber will perform better on wind drift retained energy and not shed speed like it's smaller counter part.

It is not just coyotes I use bullets that have good BC per caliber, for antleope and deer as they have helped me take some big game in the last few years past 450 yards and the goat I shot this year was 530 yards, close as I could get without getting busted, I had confidance in the bullet a nosler accu bond from a 25/06 and the long range practice paid off. Certain calibers can offer a guy good bc with good fps the best of both worlds.

Also for what it is worth never trust a reloading book as to FPS as most are off by 100 fps or so. I have found this out after using a cronograph and a friend who has a higher dollar interior program which is much closer to reality than most of the manuals on the market!
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Dcoy
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Dcoy »

Enough.Now we are saying nothing-except chest pounding.Each to their own-facts are facts.
As you are prone(pun intended)to say,good day!
PS Please don't talk to me about military sniping.
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Tim Anderson
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Tim Anderson »

Thanks for all the good info.. I'm still going to use my 17 Pred. and 22-250 ackley.. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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coyotelatrans
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by coyotelatrans »

Dcoy sorry I hit a nerve but you are right facts are facts, if some choose not to use them to their benefit so be it! I don't chest pound I only state things I know to be true, if I have done it and say it it is the honest to gods truth! I have nothing to proove to no one except myself, I just pass on info I and others have gained on topics. I'm lucky to know some real good long range shooters and I listen when they speak and use that into my system of things!

If you like I will say good day! :D
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Daryl
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Daryl »

1000yd targets are easy to hit when there not moving. Like Lyonch said shooting a dog with a well 4-10 inch kill area running at 300+yds it doesn't matter how well you have studied your B.C. or sat at a bench and shot round after round after round hitting them free hand, off sticks, or with a bi-pod at or after that range is a bitch I don't care how big your chest is or how hard you pound it it's called luck when it happens.
I would rather have a slow hit than a fast miss...
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coyotelatrans
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by coyotelatrans »

Daryl , I would differ in the respect 1,000 yard targets are easy when you factor in wind, be it a coyote or trying to have a smaller group than the next guy, but I would agree long range moving targets are very hard to hit, I'm talking about those butt sitters that hang around for a small period of time enough to either smell or see what is making that sound. That time when you can range and dial in the shot knowing full well that coyote isn't going to come any closeure. In my area calm days are rare and we average around 10-15 MPH winds, having a bullet less impacted by that wind is the main issue I'm dealing with in reguards to BC, also the fact they are more efficant from a drift and energy standpoint at longer ranges.

Funny thing is I just received this months copy of Hunting illistrated and there is a story on long range coyote shooting !
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Dcoy
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Dcoy »

Coyotelatrans,
No problem,no nerve,just talk,and I got what I paid for.The facts are in the figures.I've put em up and you haven't.Fair enough.End of story as far as I'm concerned.
Going beyond what I feel is practical coyote range is a different story.Being the expert you are,I'm sure you realize bullet flight is like water out of a hose or like a golf ball-the drop accelerates with distance.Your Berger is dropping 10 inches for every 25 yds at 600 yds and then it gets worse.Miss the range by 25=miss.Careful out there or,by golly,one of these days you'll miss one.
Hint:put your rangefinder on 'scan'and you have a better chance of getting within that 25 yd correct reading.(unless the terrain is flat) :wink:
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lyonch
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by lyonch »

coyotelatrans wrote:Funny thing is I just received this months copy of Hunting illistrated and there is a story on long range coyote shooting !
Do you seriously take what they put into a magazine the honest to god truth :roll: It seems like some have there own opinion on the subject and i guess i can only go with the facts that were presented!!!! It would be nice to see a few other individuals chime in on the subject and see what they have to say :wink:
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BUT MY SOUL BELONGS TO THE COYOTES!!!
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Daryl
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Daryl »

I understand what your saying coyotelatrans but how many coyotes hang up on you that you feel you have to shoot them at that long of ranges. Maybe you need to study your setup more than the B.C. of your bullet. If I have three a year hang up at 300+ thats about it and I have shot them out there but I can normally wait till they leave then get up, move in closer and get them in with no need for the hail mary shots. Maybe your just that good at shooting there Bob Lee Swagert and we need to leave you alone but Ol' Dcoy seems to have done his homework as well and I am not claiming to be the gold medalist at long ranges but I have had my share of luck shots out there at 300+.
I would rather have a slow hit than a fast miss...
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LeviM
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by LeviM »

Daryl wrote: Maybe you need to study your setup more than the B.C. of your bullet. If I have three a year hang up at 300+ thats about it and I have shot them out there but I can normally wait till they leave then get up, move in closer and get them in with no need for the hail mary shots.
Theres alot of truth to that statement! You shouldn't have coyotes Consistently hanging up on you. I honestly can't remember the last time I had a coyote come in and stop. Lets face it, calling location is the major factor when calling in coyotes. Hell, I bet about half the coyotes I shoot get into shotgun range, whats the BC on dead coyote out of the dead coyote choke tube.

I will honestly admit, There are times I wish I could consistently shoot past 300 yards, You never know with coyotes when then will bug out, or just sit there. My point in my post is, get your location figured out, and get them within 150 yards and you don't have to worry too much about wind and BC.
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RandyRoede
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by RandyRoede »

I wondered when this would turn??

This long range shooting, beyond belief, etc. Has put people in the field with inferior equipment and skills trying to reproduce things that they have no business doing. Although like Randy stated there are people who shoot thousands of rounds at these extended ranges and can consistanly hit coyotes, there are also people who can't hit coyotes consistanly at 150 yards!!

In my work on a coyote I need to kill I would be very hesitant to take any shot whatever the range that I wasn't sure I could make, yes shit happens, no one shoots 100%, I would come back and try it again with a whole different scenario. A coyote that has been called in and shot at is much worse than a coyote just called in and let either melt back into the terrain or left to just get downwind and leave. Numerous times I can come back and recall these coyotes with better results.

Randy and I along with the rest of us guys are extemely lucky to have Glen Sterling Jr. and Jack Alexander to lean on when we have questions about rifle shooting, both nationally known for their shooting abilities with numerous records and awards to their credit. It has made the rest of us better shooters. The trickle down from their willingness to share information goes a long ways.

Usually the long range 400 plus stuff is best left to shooting paper IMO, I have done it in the field with a fair share of 4oo plus coyotes especially in contests when every coyote is needed that day. Entirely different deal hunting a contest. Then the knowledge of where and how the rifle shoots is priceless, you just don't want to gain that knowledge on live coyotes from the get go!! You then go to the range and purchase equipment that will perform up to that level.

Practical hunting application of 400 yard shots and beyond has a limited application to say the least. TA will attest to the fact that even professinals miss and we do let coyotes walk away to kill another day.

I will say Randy, AKA coyotelantreas ?? sp, has improved his rifle shooting a ton since he started, he knows his stuff. We have a rifle shooting contest every summer in our outfit and the marksmanship as a whole has increased!! Tough crowd now to beat!!
Randy Roede
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Tim Anderson
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Tim Anderson »

Randy is correct we all can have our bad days shooting coyotes. Randy calls it a miss when the shot is off, i call it a warning shot..LOL
I also agree with Randy on letting a coyote walk if the shot can't be made.. In an area where i call coyotes a rancher once told me if you see a coyote out and about in a pasture and you have a easey shot and no in youre heart you can hit him then shoot, but if you are unsure of the shot let the coyote walk so you don't screw it up for the next guy comeing down the road. Reason for this is the coyote will become road shy and run everytime it see's a pickup..
I thought about what the rancher said and it made sense so i never took any shots at these coyotes, instead i would watch where they walked off to and comeback a hour or so later and set up and call them in and finish the deal..
Now where i live the coyotes are not so easey to call in so we hunt them and this is where i do alot of long range shooting, if the coyote is in the open and everyone is clear then you take the shot if the coyote gives you the time to set up.. Not all the coyotes are hit on the first shot, sometimes 2-3 shots are required but it can be done with as much practice as we get here at home.
I bought a Cam this year to mount on my rifle and hopefully i can get some pic's to show you it canbe done on a regular basis weither its a 400 yd standing shot or a 250 yd running shot, it can be done..
So i guess it boils down to this, if you live in a area where the coyotes canbe called on a regular bases, then come back another time and call them in close and finish the deal rather than educateing the coyote..
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coyotelatrans
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by coyotelatrans »

I still state a higher BC bullet is better than a lower BC faster bullet past 350 yards in a given caliber. I also think some on here think I don't miss, I do! I miss more close ones than further because on some on them I have less time than on the longer shots I take! I won't take a rushed longer shot, if I can't get a reliable range and have the time to make the shot I don't take it. I'm talking butt sitters only not 25-30 mph running coyotes, way to much to calculate with any degree of accuracy past 300 yards, speed,angle in which the coyote is running and figuring lead to much for my brain to compute!

You must also remember I call in an area that gets alot of calling pressure within 70 miles there are 5-6 calling contest each winter. I also have drought conditions that at times can only hide a guy so well, but I still need to call. So yes some of these coyotes I'm lucky to get to show themselves at times and when they do a % won't come to that 150-200 yard mark, I wish they all would but not reality.Tim the if you can't hit him leave him be idea is blown out the window in this area, very rare to see a coyote in shooting distance from a road! I can count on 1 hand minus a few fingers the number of coyotes I see from a road the majority of the year from everyone with a truck gun shooting at them running and 700 yards away! The majority come at deer hunting time when the cover is hunted hard by deer hunters forcing those coyotes out into the open! Other wise you could drive alot and not see hardly any coyotes from the road. So while I don't shoot at many, they will get shot at by many! They hear a truck and they are on a dead ass haul in the opposite direction, dumb coyotes don't last long in this area LOL.

Randy R is right, you need a decent rifle and a "good load" and shoot it often at extended ranges to be good at extended ranges! Some will shoot at 100 yards all the time and think a dime size group it is a real shooter, yet they have a very hard time hitting things at 300-500 yards because they don't practice at such ranges! Levi to you 300 yards is a long shot, to others it is not and something many do with a high% of accuracy. None of us will do that unless we practice those shots in field conditions. I only use a bench to check loads with a chronograph or test different bullets, after that I shoot all practice from bi pods and sticks because it does no good to practice with a rock steady bench if I can't have that in field conditions. I have life sized coyote silouetts that I place out to 500 yards and shoot at, the more I do it the better I get as would anyone who puts in the time and has a decent rifle,a decent scope and a load matched to their gun!

We all miss not doubt, but the point of this thread is how to put the advantage more in our hands with less calculation needed as that is what makes us miss a big portion of the time, miss judging range or wind deflection. The advent of range finders has helped the vertical,before many missed high as the natural instinct is to over compensate the range, add in more open country and it gets worse! The horizontal is still something of an unknown compared to a range finder! The day we can buy a handheld unit that will give us exact wind at a given distance is the day BC has less value! Until that time a bullet that has less wind deflection is better IMO. It also hits harder at extended range which I believe is a benefit as well knowing how tough a coyote is.

I have gained alot of good practical knowledge from those that are far better long range shots than myself and their willingness to share what they know and it has helped me hit things at much longer ranges and have the confidence to try those shots and do it to a degree each time I am more pleased with! Some critters I have taken I know wouldn't have been killed without that knowledge and the practice I put into it all!

I'm done but if you have time look up a good free exterior program and play with different BC's in a given caliber and see how those numbers change for yourself, then use what you think is best for you and your situation. Thin jackets and high speeds on bone= bullet splash :wink:
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jaybic
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by jaybic »

I dont know a great deal about this but I have noticed a few things.

First, I would say that its a bit harsh to tell a guy on the ".243 reloads" thread to take his BC talk and start his own thread, which he does and then have those who ushered him out come to this thread, call him a liar, spread the sarcasm and then abruptly say...I dont want to hear it.

I also would guess there are a fair number of very good shooters(I do not count myself among them) here that would say 300 yards is a chip shot. F Class shooters shoot factory heavy barrel Savages and Remingtons off bipods laying prone(not unlike a coyote stand, eh?)to ranges of 600 yards and farther. Yes they do know the distance but are still being bounced around by the wind...ect...ect. Those of you who have shot these matches know more about it than I. My buddy and on go on one PD trip a year and we only shoot off shooting sticks and a 5 gal pale because its good "coyote practice. I also submit that if anyone wants to take precision shooting to the next level, they might well check into the benchrest sites. While I am very sure there are few better "coyote knowledge" websites that this one and I have learned tons here, I will also risk criticism(and I mean no offense to anyone)by saying there are perhaps better sites for the "Holy Grail" of precision shooting There are past and current world champion shooters there of every discipline...factory/hunter class/1k/F class who have forgotten more about shooting than most folks have or will ever know.

By all means I would encourage those that think they got it nailed to go compare notes with this group and see if you really know what your talking about when the subject is PURE ACCURACY and Ballistics. Funny part is, they all preach high BC bullets at any distance and when benchrest season is over, ya know what they do? They put the bench guns away, pick up the Varmint/coyote rifle and shoot pds and coyotes. Go see for yourselves. One site there is a great "how to" interview type article on a guy that regularly shoots clay pidgeons(about coyote vital size) with his .308 off a bipod.....AT 700 YARDS!

All I know is I learned that I knew very little about accurate long range shooting.

Best of luck,

Jaybic
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Tim Anderson
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Tim Anderson »

Yes its great to know the BC of the bullets available for hunting and what a good BC bullet can do. When i decide on what bullet i'm going to use and the weight then i look up the BC for that weight and test that bullet first.. I don't and well not use a heavey bullet in my coyote rifles reguardless of its BC..
I got lucky on my 17 cal with the 30 gr. bullet, its the heaviest for that cal. and only 3-4 companies make it, and it does a great job on the coyotes..
In my 22-250 ackley i use a 52 gr. thats what my rifle was built to shoot..Yes there are heavier and better BC bullets made for it but i don't want a coyote with a grapefruit size hole in it either..
If i was into it just to kill coyotes then i would use a 25-06 or 257 arnold with a good BC bullet.. You can't always have the best of everything and just have to make due with what you got that works for you...
Thanks for the good BC info.. Tim A.
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