Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

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LeviM
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by LeviM »

jaybic wrote:
First, I would say that its a bit harsh to tell a guy on the ".243 reloads" thread to take his BC talk and start his own thread, which he does and then have those who ushered him out come to this thread, call him a liar, spread the sarcasm and then abruptly say...I dont want to hear it.
Jaybic
Not to get too far off subject, but I am the one that suggested a new topic on BC. I don't think I ever called him a liar, or spread sarcasism and I definetly didn't say I don't want to hear, I appreciate everyones opinion, theres alot to learn from

I don't know if this quote was directed at me or not, I just want to clear it up
Last edited by LeviM on Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Daryl
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Daryl »

Levi maybe it was directed to me but I don't think anyone was ever called a LIAR. :roll:
I would rather have a slow hit than a fast miss...
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jaybic
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by jaybic »

Levi,

No, it was not at all directed at you and I apologize for ever giving you that impression. I know you from another forum we both frequent and even in disagreement, you have always been respectful of other posters that I have seen. Its also perhaps not my place to police this as Coyotehunter in charge here and if am overstepping my bounds, I apologize to him as well. I just think guys can disagree without calling each other sarcastic names and questioning their integrity which is a fancy way of calling them a liar.

Anyone can reread the posts it becomes clear that while no one came out and called anyone a liar verbatim, it sure was implied. Facts(especially partial ones) are always useful items when they support a persons position but they sure get in the way when you dont agree with the other persons version of the facts. If 2 people want to do things 2 different ways, it does not mean than either person is wrong(Low BC light bullet VS Hi BC heavy bullet) but if anyone wants to put forth FACTS, they better have them ALL.

If a person wants to know all about this BC stuff, its as simple as calling the Sierra Bullets tech line at 800-223-8799 and speaking with any one of 6 full time professional ballisticians live. That is all they do. Reload and shoot for a living. This is not internet "he said-he said" info. I have called them many times for info and what they tell me is nearly an echo of what Coyotelatrans has posted here. All I am saying is that if Dcoy/Daryl and Coyotelatrans disagree and each thinks the other is wrong, and you want to learn about this stuff, call Sierra and get the facts from the pros.

Jaybic,
PS. Levi/Lyonch, and others, good luck at the Classic. I will be out there then but not hunting in it. Maybe next year.

Jaybic
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LeviM
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by LeviM »

jaybric~

Now harm no foul, good post, and good info!

Make sure you introduce yourself to us at the classic, I will buy the first beer!!!
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Dcoy
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Dcoy »

Jaybic,
I assume you are talking about me.I agree,to each their own and perhaps I got too sarcastic.On the other hand,for what I described as 'practical coyote'hunting I feel my FACTS(figures)as posted are correct.No one has disputed them or shown them to be wrong but,nevertheless I ran them again using Hornadys calculator and they are fact,not opinion.(actually,Hornadys I found even more favorable).
You state ballistics are as simple as calling the pros.Well I'm afraid it isn't quite that simple but,nevertheless I used your number and did.Good discussion,good people,and I even ended up ordering their latest Infinity ballistics software.Fact of the matter is,the figures I posted are correct.
Good hunting.
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Daryl
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Daryl »

jaybic wrote:
All I am saying is that if Dcoy/Daryl and Coyotelatrans disagree and each thinks the other is wrong, and you want to learn about this stuff, call Sierra and get the facts from the pros.
Ok I went back and read my post and am trying to figure out why you think I disagree with what Dcoy and coyotelatrans are saying and why you think I feel anthing they are saying is wrong. I am just wondering why they need to worry about shooting at coyotes that are 1/2 mile away. I stated maybe he should concern himself on his setup so there is no need for coyotes to hang up all the time and have to make long shots. I never said either was wrong or disagree with there talk on Ballistic Coefficiant and how important it is for long distant shooting just wondering why it is so important to calling coyotes. Maybe I am spoiled here and have never had to worry about it as much as you guys do. I would say 95% of the coyotes I shoot are 100yds or less and the other 5% are not worth worrying about to write page long articles on Ballistic Coefficiant. Sorry my couple little paragraphs caused such a big uproar in your page after page after page of B.C.
I would rather have a slow hit than a fast miss...
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jaybic
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by jaybic »

Ok ,

I should probably clairify a couple things because I dont want to take this thread south. Dcoy, in the ".243 reloads" thread you mentioned that you were gonna "tweak a few noses" about BC on a new thread which I assume is this one, titled above with the emphasis on LONG RANGE. It does not mention "practical" at all in the title but you did in talking about practical coyote hunting ranges. The nose tweaking comment makes it sound like you are sure you are the only one who knows what they are talking about. Please note that I agreed with you when someone mentioned the bullets rise out of the muzzle. Your correct. It doest happen. I also agree with you that BC means almost nothing out to 300 yards. Problem is, this thread is long range which to me is way past 300 yards and it does come in to play here as you are aware. This also goes back to the .243 reloads thread where you said BC=BS and that "some people read too much". Touche. And some dont read enough. BTW, Dcoy, I have no issues with your calculations as I use the Hornady calculator and I already have the Sierra software you just ordered so as long as we both punch in the same figures, we would have to match in our data.

Anyway, as soon as Coyotelatrans talks about long range coyote hunting the first thing that happens is he is critisized by some for a poor set up and that he cant get them closer. What does that have to do with anything? The subject is a long range thread discussion. It has nothing to do with how close he can get them in. Maybe he can call them to his lap but likes an 800yard shot.

Daryl, I was not to clear maybe. I think you very much agree with Dcoy and disagree with Coyotelatrans. You mention that "1000 yard shot is easy". No offense but thats bold, off a bench or not. Thats a long shot on the most perfect day and condition. You state "I dont know why anyone is worrying about shooting coyotes 1/2 mi away. Read the thread title. Its about long range. It is about that shot and the knowledge needed to make it and BC is one small part of that knowledge. Its your quote but you also said "BC is BS" in another post. Ok,
then tell me why the best long range shooters in the world(not coyote callers...shooters)all use bullets with the highest BC they can get? It matters. You are fortunate enough to be able to put these critters inside 100 yards 95 percent of the time so that makes this info useless to you, fine. But not to everyone here. Dont assume because you dont want to know it or learn from it that someone else doesnt is all I am saying.

I do not wish to offend here at all and I apologize to any of you that I might have offended.

jaybic

P.s. Dcoy, I stand corrected. I should not have referred to ballistics as simple when in fact, it is quite complex. Anyone that doesnt think so has not looked at the back pages of a Sierra loading manual an seen the formulas.
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Dcoy
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Dcoy »

Jaybic,
No problem.I may get sarcastic but I won't call anyone a liar without being direct about it.Despite my age,if I have to do that,I will do it to their face.(please recall I accepted and used CLs Berger BC and velocity on the assumption he wasn't lying.)
Free country,people can believe/use what they want,all I'm saying is I was very careful with my facts and figures.I gave exactly where and how I obtained every computer input and believe they are right.
As to Sierra,always spent time with my books and Nosler and Hornady manuals and never read their stuff nor visited their site.A mistake.Great source,thank you.
I was directed to their exterior ballistics stuff and its great.My favorite quote from there so far would probably be the following:

"For hunting purposes “shooting flat” is a major objective, as are adequate retained energy and momentum over the effective range of the gun for the intended game, adequate accuracy, and low sensitivity to crosswinds and vertical winds. A gun that “shoots flat” produces small bullet drop within the effective range for the intended game. This is very important, because it is difficult for a hunter to estimate range to a game animal under practical conditions in the field. Of course, there are several optical and electro-optical range finders available, but most hunters cannot be assured that their game will be patient and stand perfectly still while they attempt to use a range finder under non-hunter-friendly field conditions. The concept of point blank range is one very practical way to ease the range-estimating problem for hunters in the field (more about this in a later section). A “flat shooting” gun inherently has more point blank range than a gun with a “rainbow” trajectory. “Flat shooting” requires high muzzle velocities and bullets with high ballistic efficiency."

That statement is all I'm after.The flattest shooting bullet I can use for the purpose I'm pursuing.When all is said and done,I doubt CL,you and I really differ about very much.
I've likely said enough on this thread and will just try let it go.
Good hunting!
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jaybic
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by jaybic »

Bygones. me too Dcoy. We probably are on the same page for the most part and I think I am right in between you and CL in my thinking. In my 22-250 I dont use the 40s (lightest/fastest bullets at the muzzle but also lose velocity quicker) because at 300 yards or so( dont remember exactly) the 50gr Vmax that I shoot pass them up and carries more smack out there aways. I also dont shoot 55 or 60 gr Vmax because I dont want to have to hold over any more than I have to so I try to find a balance of weight/speed/drop/bc...blah blah blah...ect..ect to find my own "Best choice". 50s are my compromise. 3600fps w/ 35.5gr H4895 sighted dead on at 200 and a Leupold VX3 with the varmint hunter reticle with the 300/400/500 aiming points in them although they dont hit right on at that range. I dont mean I can hit a damn thing but I sure look good missing with that scope. :D

Nice tip with the scan mode on the rangefinder BTW. I didnt know that.

Jaybic
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Dcoy
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Dcoy »

Interesting about the 40 gr 22-250s.Mine won't shoot the 40s well.I also use the 50s in mine.A little fasterloaded than yours but a solid,good weight I think.
As to the 'scan'mode.I just have just experimented with different finders.My problem has always been that just pushing the button 'moves'me around enough to get variable readings or on snow no reading at all.Usually with a good 'finder'its not much variation but then,particularly in flat country,as you get out to 400 and beyond,its not hard to get more significant variations.Then a friend said try 'scan',its not just for moving animals.It sure seems to work-you get variables but basically zero in on an area that gives you very close to right on.
So far its been good with my new finder.
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lyonch
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by lyonch »

Since you guys are talking about the .22-250, i have a quick question about the load that i shoot. I shoot a Sierra 52 grain HPBT bullet that is pushed at 3850 by 41.5 grains of H380. What do you think about it? It seems to group well for me and this is the first year with it and just curious if anyone elese besides the individual that i got it from experimented with it?
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jaybic
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by jaybic »

I am not sure if we are hijacking but mine shoots 40s very well. I just moved to 50s because I lost one with a 280yd shot with 40s and decided I wanted more smack but before that I was an absolute speed freak. If I thought I could get 27000fps, I woulda tried it until I learned about the BC thing and that heavy bullets eventually pass light bullets because the little ones shed velocity so fast. Anyway,

My range finder is a Leupold RX4 and I also have an old nikon 800yd whatever and it seems to pick up better that the Leupy. I think its too fancy and I am not smart enough to set it up right. Maybe I should read the owners manual.

jaybic
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Tim Anderson
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Tim Anderson »

Since you guys are talking about the .22-250, i have a quick question about the load that i shoot. I shoot a Sierra 52 grain HPBT bullet that is pushed at 3850 by 41.5 grains of H380. What do you think about it? It seems to group well for me and this is the first year with it and just curious if anyone elese besides the individual that i got it from experimented with it?

You are getting good vel. and the 52 gr. works well on the coyotes and not badd on the fur either.. I still use it in my Rem. 788.. The same load is also accurte in my rifle but when i shoot at targets past 300 the groups really open up for me.. I tried same bullet in my ackley and had the same good accuracy but opened up past 300 so i went to the 52 A-max in my ackley.. For calling though its still a good bullet..
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lyonch
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by lyonch »

thanks for the insight TA!! i will have to shoot mine over 300 to see how they group :D
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Re: Bullet BC and other factors of long range coyote shooting

Post by Dcoy »

Chris,
Haven't tried your load and my 50 gr bullet is the Nosler BT.Your speed is good.Mine is about 3800 fps with 36.5 grs of IMR 4064.I haven't shot the 22-250 for a couple years and never really targeted it past 300 so can't address Tims comment there either.When I get caught up with a couple messes that came up here recently I'll try it and let you guys know.
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