Do the bullet makers have it right?

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Pilgrim

Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Pilgrim »

Do the bullet manufacturers have it right when it comes to COYOTES?

If no, what could a bullet maker learn from a practiced coyote killer?
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Dcoy
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Dcoy »

I think Nosler got it very right with BTs. :D
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Tbush
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Tbush »

so many to choose from..you'll know when you find what works in your gun!
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coyotelatrans
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by coyotelatrans »

IMO NO, I have talked with a guy at nosler and they need to make bullets with heavier jackets in the smaller calibers to get rid of the bullet splash found with the thin varmint jackets and shoulder hits! I find myself using the heavier jacketed hunting bullets on coyotes as I'm after a very high% of dead coyotes without chasing them around.

Some bullet maker needs to come out with 50- 55 grain 22 cals up to 80 grain 6mm with a heavier jacket aimed at the coyote hunting market, get rid of the splash and lessen runners. 3,500 FPS+ and thin jackets ask alot of a bullet to perform over a wide varity of ranges and circumstances IMO.
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Dcoy »

Hit em right,don't chase em. :D
Seriously though,I feel there are a number of great coyote bullets out there.
I think BTs are great in a number of 22 and24 cal weights and in 25 cal-one of the all time great deer bullets.
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lyonch
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by lyonch »

If you are looking for a coyote to be dead in its tracks every time and dont care about any fur damage then i feel you need to go with a heavier bullet that has a slightely thicker jacket on the bullet or even jump to a different caliber to get that bullet. If you are hunting for fur and and dont want a coyote to run its all about shot placement. Any bullet that travels at high velocities will splash when it hits something hard. There will be a 100 different opinions on this subject!! If you dont care about the exit hole up a caliber or two until they are offered. If you are hunting for fur as i do then your bullet placement needs to be where you want it. I have seen the smaller caliber bullets do more damage to an animal than the larger calibers :wink:
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bucksnbears
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by bucksnbears »

here is what i've noticed. i shoot 50 grain balistic tips in my 22-250.sometimes there is hide damage, specially with a glancing hit. straight on or staight away seems ok. however, sierra 50gr. blitzkings seem much better . i think the jackets are tougher. also more accurate out of my 250 and .222. the only reason i'm shooting bt's is there cheaper and lots easier to find. blitzkings for some reason are getting hard to get .
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barebackjack
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by barebackjack »

Im a HUGE fan of the Nosler 50 gr. BT's in my .22-250. Mirroring whats already been said, sometimes they make little holes, sometimes a little bigger. Nothing that cant be sewn though and I RARELY get a runner, if I do, its most likely a leg/low abdomen hit.

On problem with going with a substantialy heavier bullet in the .22 cals would be twist rate of barrels. Alot of the sporter barrels (in bolt rifles at least) possibly arent fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullets (I had an old .22-250 Rem 700 BDL that im pretty sure was 1:9 or 10? maybe, late 70's early 80's model). However when you get into the varmint barrels, the twist rate increases.

Anybody stepping up to the 60-70 grain range? Notice a difference when compared to the lower end of the spectrum?
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Roane Ranger »

Bullet selection has greatly improved over the last 30 years- they were good then, but great now. :D
There are actually more options than you can effeciently compare and afford to shoot now, and things are more specialized than they ever were- technology has greatly improved our condition. 8)

I don't see the need for "coyote specials"- it' matching your firearm, caliber and bullet to the range, game, and situation.
You can't cover it all, all of the time.
Proper application and shot placement is the key- but everything doesn't always go as planned.

You may be over analyzing things- and it could just be you asking too much from the equipment too make up for your errors, anxieties, etc.
An IT buddy of mine always refers to technical problems as- "The problem exists between the chair and the keyboard." :lol: With a little mod to the phrase- "The problem exists between the ground and the firearm."
A mechanic buddy says "There is a loose nut behind the wheel." :lol:

I'm just saying it's not always the bullets fault.
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Coyotehunter »

There are plenty of great coyote bullets out there in the .22 cal.. I shoot a Sierra 69 gr. BTHP in a .22-6mm and just do not experience any problems what so ever. coyotes just flop over when hit. I have taken out both shoulders on several occasions and with in 150 yards most of the time I have an exit hole. Some times a very large exit hole. I also have used the 55 gr. vmax in a .22-.250 AI with great success as well as sierra 52 gr. BTHP in .22 as well. On my .22 I just do not experience bullet related problems. I see more of this in the .17 and .204 at coyotes. which neither gun is a great coyote gun. yeah a know they will kill them but just not great choices for coyotes. A lot of the problems with bullets blowing up on impact would be eliminated by just slowing things down. that coyote does not give a shit if you are going to hit him at 3500 fps or 4000 fps. Put it in the right spot and the results will be the same. The arguement of flat shooting and wind bucking is just not a good one. who cares if you are holding over 10" or 12", what difference does it make if you are allowing 20" or 30" of drift. If you know what "it" is it realy should not matter. flat shooting is more crytical if you do not know the yardage, with todays range finders and mil dots there is just less situations were this is consistantly a problem. a Lot of guys plan their whole gun and load combination around the rare occasion that they may have to take a shot out past 400 yards. with that being said they then never practice the shot that they built the gun for. If you do not have a range finder then to top it all off you have a guy out in the field witha gun/load combo built for 400-600 yard shots, planning for a shot on coyote that he has not practiced, only to being sitting there guessing the distance. Personaly for most guys they should be planning there gun around a shot that they are going to consistantly have to make, maybe 250 yards on in. If that was the case you may not need your bullets to be setting world speed records and not be having problems with the bullets blowing up on impact.
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Roane Ranger
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Roane Ranger »

Years ago, my cousins wanted me to reload for them- 243 Win & 30-06 cartridges for whitetail deer, and sometimes groundhogs (woodchucks). We would have a discussion about what they wanted in performance- always max speed. They would bring me their empty cases, bullets, and powder that I requested they buy, then I would put it together for them. I would even end up zeroing the rifle for them, usually. They didn't practice much either, and usually no further than 100 yards, if they did. I saw early on that they couldn't hit anything well, no matter what they were using, so speed was irrelevant. Oh, they were successful, but usually took more than a few shots.

The funniest part was when I asked them about the performance of their chosen caliber after a sucessful hunt. They would reply in terms of "That was the hotest sum bitch ever, really knocked him down!' To which I would ask "You could really tell, huh?" "Yea, max speed." Well, needless to say, it was never MAX. I tailored the charge to the bullet for ACCURACY. Which helped them IF they got a chance for good shot PLACEMENT. :lol:

I finally told them when they got too cocky of an attitude toward my experience, and recommendations. I never could talk sense to them until I dropped that bomb on them. After that, all was just fine. :shock:

One year, they brought me a box of 110 gr. bullets (30 carbine) to load in an 30-06, figuring even higher velocities. Yea, but the bullet wasn't designed to take the forces involved, and they blew up before getting 100 yds out to the target! They NEVER put a mark on the target. Even though loads are listed in a manual, don't mean they are always viable. Thankfully they blew up, because I would never have been comfortable with them using a round intended for plinking on deer.

Getting in a hurry is the worst thing that can happen when trying to get a shot off at any game animal. I have fired on rifle ranges under timed fire in the Marine Corps, and one second is a long time when when you're pulling the trigger. The round is down range before you can blink- use the rest of the time for shot preparation (even though the animal might not be very cooperative). JMHO :)
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Tbush
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Tbush »

WELL said you guys... I'm no reloader and have an older than me guy load my bullets for my 22-250 shoots a55 gr at 3600fps which ain't fast but I know how it shoots everytime and like coyotehunter said I know the hold over etc SO what if its 6 in more than a faster bullet :wink:
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Dcoy »

To each their own.I want the bullet I'm using to go as fast as it will accurately shoot.Period.The less drop,the less room for error in range estimation.If at 'X' range i have a choice between a 2 inch drop and a 5 inch drop.I take the 2 hands down.If that bullet doesn't perform on the critter,i get another bullet. :D Things go wrong easily for me so I never intentionally add room for error.
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Roane Ranger »

What do you mean "3600 fps" ain't fast? :shock: That's around 2450 mph! Compare that to something you might relate to better. Your truck traveling at 60 mph is 88 fps. The Space Shuttle Challenger, when it blew up back in '86, was traveling at more than 2700 fps (approx. the speed of my 180 gr. '06 bullets) on the end of a rocket. Gas expansion propulsion has it's limitations, you know. It's all F-A-S-T! :D
I want the bullet I'm using to go as fast as it will accurately shoot. Period.

That is exactly what we are saying- you can drive one as fast as you want, but without hitting anything EXACTLY where you want it, it doesn't matter how fast it got there. Accuracy is the most important "reason d'etre". I try to choose loads that travel as fast as accurately practical, with the least amount of pressure, and therefore less vibration, wear and tear, etc., staying in that "sweet spot" that each individual rifle works within. But, when you extend the range, or change some other factor, you have changed the equation. Bullets are designed to do their job between a certain velocity spread, mostly. There are limitations, and when they are exceeded, you get less than adequate results, some of the time. Consider the above speeds and appropriate time frames (milliseconds) and you want the bullet to do what within this time frame? :shock:

I think it helped my cousins when I showed them the difference in "actual" drop at the various yardages. Once you cross the PBR (point blank range- not the beer :) ) limit, THEN the issue with hold over is more critical, but you won't see much difference- not 2 or 3 inches between bullets of the same caliber (except maybe in a 45-70- now that's an arc :lol: ). Drop is drop- Newton's laws, and all.

The best anyone can do is to work out the bugs or problems within your control to reduce any issues that may be your fault (practice range estimation, practice shooting at those distances, and practice it all over again), and let Murphy have all of the other factors to play with when you go hunting. This way, when something goes wrong, you can blame Murphy and his laws. :wink:
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Re: Do the bullet makers have it right?

Post by Dcoy »

Hi.Yeh,I think we are all pretty much talking the same.I just want my bullet to go the fastest it can accurately.I've also always subscribed to Jim Carmichaels old quote-'why buy a race horse if you ain't gonna run it?'.If I'm shooting my improveds,I want/expect speed.The most speed I can get accurately.
Where we differ is your statement you won't get 2or 3 inches difference in the same caliber.You will,even with the same bullet,more with heavier bullets within the caliber.
Take a simple example:Say a 55 gr bullet with a BC of .250 sighted in at 200 yds.
At 4000 fps your drop is approximately 13 inches at 300,25 inches at 400,44 inches at 500 and 72 inches at 600.
At 3600 fps its about 16.5 at 300,32 at 400;56 at 500;91 at 600.
All I'm saying is I'll take the former stats if its accurate.I agree though that with range finders etc,its less crucial but.........thats some serious differences IMV.
Good hunting.
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