Consistent powders???

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LeviM
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by LeviM »

thanks guys for the info!
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bucksnbears
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by bucksnbears »

just did a mini experamint with some loads. i shot my normal loads of winchester powder748, cci lr. magnums50gr nosler ballistic tips. also some blc-2 powder with all else the same. 22-250 savage model 12 1-12 twist. i shot at 100-200-300 yards. .i shot 3 shot groups with a barrel cooling time inbetwwen. i shot a total of 36 rounds.18 rounds were subject to the cold 18 were room temp.between the 2 different powders and the 2 different temps there was no cange of impact at the 100-200 yard range however, the cold round shots at 300 yards were about 3.5 inches lower than the 300-warm load shots.not a very leanghty experamint but was enough to show that there is a difference between warm and cold .
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jaybic
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by jaybic »

I agree with that also, I know that benchrest shooters will not let their rounds sit in the sun while shooting and they will not let a round sit in the chamber long after they have already started shooting. They call it a "cooked round" because the heat from the previouse shot cooks the round currently in the chamber which will then blow their pencil eraser sized groups all to pieces. They will shoot it into the sighter target and then leave the bolt open until they are ready to shoot again.

One good way to work on cold-vs-warm is to go to the range in the summer with some regular(warm weather rounds) and then the identical load stored in a cooler with ice for a few hours(winter rounds) and shoot them and see the difference in POI. Or do it in the winter with cold rounds and then sit some ammo on the dash with the heater running(warm weather rounds) and do the same study. You will see a difference.

Another bad idea out coyote hunting is when its -10 degrees to hop in the truck, throw a box of shells on the dash(to get heated up and you dont realize this) and wonder why you miss the "Sure Thing" shot. Pretty much everybody has done this I wil bet.

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LeviM
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by LeviM »

Very good points!
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lyonch
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by lyonch »

Good job guys on the responses!! I like the idea of cooling the shell, but what happens when the chamber and barrell and everything else is hot and your load is cold?? I think you would almost have to cool the barrel/action/casing to the same temp. When i am coyote hunting i spend very minimal time in the truck, so my gun and loads are always outdoor temps. I will definitely do some experimenting though and post any results that i come across.
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jaybic
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by jaybic »

Hey fellas,

Probably the only real way to test "hunting loads"/site in is to fire 1 shot per day at the same target. We all know that the "money shot" on any wild game is your first cold barrel shot. That is the one that needs to connect. After that, its a running critter and all bets are off. That first shot needs to be a bullseye every time. Maybe its splitting hairs and I been thinking about this for a while now, but I am going to start keeping track of my first shot every time I go to the range. Maybe a separate target and get a 5 shot group on 5 different days and then you should truly have an idea of how consistant your rifle is for hunting conditions, my guess anyway.

The bench guys after extreme accuracy(which we are all after or we wouldnt be talking about this) pretty much shoot two different ways as I understand it.

Method 1: Wait for the right wind conditions and then bang all 5 shots off as fast as possible before it changes or the rounds have a chance to heat up much(they usually have a certain time limit like 15mins but I am not sure exactly how long). They will sometimes sit for 14 1/2 mins and rap off all 5 rounds in the last 30 seconds or when ever conditions are perfect for just a few seconds.

Method 2: Use the entire 15 mins to shoot all 5 shots, which never really allows the rifle to heat up too much, shooting only when the wind is exactly the same direction and speed as the last shot so conditions are as similar as possible from shot to shot.

Problem is not much of this really applies to whacking coyotes directly but it may help in your load developement(sp?) which hopefully will mean more hits more often. We all hope!!!

Jaybic
Last edited by jaybic on Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jaybic
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by jaybic »

Hey fellas,

Probably the only real way to "hunting" test loads/site in is to fire 1 shot per day at the same target. We all know that the "money shot" on any wild game is your first cold barrel shot. That is the one that needs to connect. After that, its a running critter and all bets are off. That first shot needs to be a bullseye every time. Maybe its splitting hairs but I am going to start keeping track of my first shot every time I go to the range. Maybe a separate target and get a 5 shot group on 5 different days and then you should truly have an idea of how consistant your rifle is, my guess anyway.

The bench guys after extreme accuracy(which we are all after or we wouldnt be talking about this) pretty much shoot two different ways as I understand it.

Method 1: Wait for the right wind conditions and then bang all 5 shots off as fast as possible before it changes or the rounds have a chance to heat up much(they usually have a certain time limit like 15mins but I am not sure exactly how long). They will sometimes sit for 14 1/2 mins and rap off all 5 rounds in the last 30 seconds or when ever conditions are perfect for just a few seconds.

Method 2: Use the entire 15 mins to shoot all 5 shots, which never really allows the rifle to heat up too much, shooting only when the wind is exactly the same direction and speed as the last shot so conditions are as similar as possible from shot to shot.

Problem is not much of this really applies to whacking coyotes directly but I may help in your load developement(sp?) which hopefully will mean more hits more often. We all hope!!!

Jaybic
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coyotelatrans
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by coyotelatrans »

Ball powders are far more sensitive to temp changes than any other powder for sure. The reason stick powders came about is better temp sensativity. Then Hodgdon came along with a coating on their extreme line up to even further reduce the temp issues and I have found over my cronograph it holds true. Varget, H-4831 sc and h- 4350 are all in the extreme line of powders and give better SD and also better point of impact at different temps than do other powders I have tried.

I to have a load with ball powder in a 22-250 that shoots well but has a 2" differance at 100 yards at 75 degrees versus 35 degrees at 400 yards it compounds the problem. The reason I am making the switch to varget for that load won't have to make adjustements between winter calling and summer work. Hodgdons testing has showed less than 20fps between 0 and 110 degrees I have yet to try that extreme but 35 to 80 I see less than 10 fps in my limited testing over a chronograph. Plus shooting the same load on paper shows little to any change point of impact. in my temp ranges. They aren't barn burning powders but I will sacrafice the blazing speed for better SD.
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Coyotehunter
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by Coyotehunter »

just to give my 2 cents on this issue, I just do not see this has ever been that big of a deal for me. I shoot H380 in my .22-250 AI, H380 is so inconsistant from batch to batch that a lot of books will not even give it a RQ rating. burns kind of dirty and some big swings from summer to winter in cold conditions. Here is the deal though, at 3900 FPS 200 yard zero @ 500 yards 25.37" of drop with a vmax bullet. in Winter the most I have seen is about 200 fps drop (which is a lot) and at the same sight in and 500 yards distance 28.63" of drop as measured by a Oehlers chronographer and ballistic explorer. Now this may not be exact real world numbers becasue I am not out there with a tape measure but do use this as a chart on my gun and find it to be very accurate. You can see that at least for me I am getting very little change as it matters on fur in the field. I have been plum happy with the H380, meters great and very accurate. This was a favorite powder of one of the Hodgen sons in competitions. Hence the name 38.0 grains of this powder was the charge for his .22-.250 if I remember right it was for a 55 gr bullet as well. (don't quote me on that)
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lyonch
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by lyonch »

"This was an unnamed spherical rifle propellant when the late Bruce Hodgdon first used it. When a 38.0 grain charge behind a 52 grain bullet gave one hole groups from his 22 caliber wildcat (now called the 22-250), he appropriately named the powder H380."

You were so close coyotehunter :wink:
Do you think that the altitude had something to do with your conclusions with your .22-250 AI?? I keep forgetting too that how does one really know that his gun stayed zeroed from the day i practiced with in the summer to 3-4 months down the road when i was then again practicing in 0 F or below tp check actual drops. Im glad that i am seeing opinions from all ends of the spectrum :D
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Coyotehunter
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by Coyotehunter »

That info was from when I lived in Grand Forks, ND, Elevation about 834 Ft. The powder with heat and cold will expand and contract with in the case. This will change the pressure inside the case upon ignition and effect velocities at the barrel.
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coyotelatrans
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Re: Consistent powders???

Post by coyotelatrans »

I weigh each and every powder charge on a redding scale as I trust this to give me the most accurate charge. I know metering can be very good as well, but rarely do I need to load up 100's of rounds at a time, most of the time I'm doing 50-100 rounds and it is relaxing as well, so I take my time and in a few sessions have plenty of loaded rounds. That I know each very less than 1 tenth of a grain. I feelthis helps when testing loads as it gives you a true SD reading, iginition is something that is hard for us to control as primers are what they are but I have found winchesters to be very good and burn a tad hotter than CCI BR or standard CCI primers for me.

I like the hodgdon powders and they work well, but I would like to try some of the new RL-17 in my .243 to see what it can gain. I'm going to be done with ball type powders becuase of the issues we have described. WE all have a much better range of powders to choose from today versus even 10-15 years ago and technology will keep giving us great powders! So many choices at times it can be tough on which may trully be the best :D
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