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Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby xdeano » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:55 pm

Thanks Bucks, i'm not disagreeing with you at all. I'm just saying that not every bullet is going to be the "perfect" bullet for each particular coyote under each particular shooting situation. I've shot pleanty of those 50 softpoints, I've also shot plenty of those 52g Match and quite a few more with the 50g Noslers. Hell if you really want to get into it, get a 1-7 or 1-8 twist and shoot some of those 77g or 80g bullets in a 22. They all shoot well in the 22 cal variant of your choice. And coyotes will curl up and die. I've even shot a few with those 45g hp that winchester puts out, they hammer pretty hard too, but will show a lot more splash than the others above.

Bucks, I will agree with you that Tournaments are a whole different ball of wax, if you don't shoot some times, you'll never have a chance to win the prize. So pulling the trigger is the only way to get luck once or twice then do it, by all means.

The thing that irritates me is the initial poster wanted some hard nosed thoughts on 22 cal bullets and people keep throwing curve balls around the subject with big stuff and little stuff. The poster could probably care less about the performance of the 308 round that I shoot, it'll kill a coyote and bury it at the same time. but he just want's to shoot coyotes, not pick up pieces.

I say pick up a well constructed bullet and go out and first see how it handles in your rifle, then go out and kill some coyotes. If you don't like it change to another bullet. It isn't science, well... ok i won't get into that. Life is paved with life experiences, so you're just going to have to learn them as you go and you'll be wiser in the end.

If it was me, i'd probably pick the 52g HP Match, they work like you wouldn't believe.

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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby xdeano » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:20 pm

PG, what are you using for a bullet in that 22-6mm?

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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby Jeck » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:56 pm

xdeano wrote: If it was me, i'd probably pick the 52g HP Match, they work like you wouldn't believe. xdeano


xdeano - that is exactly what I have been shooting for the last couple years... except for my few expirements with the v-max. I have no complaints about the 52 gr BTHP's.

Thanks guys for all the posts. I like to hear everyones views on the subject. I am glad to see it is not just me that has experienced these problems. I know that Les Johnson and Fred Eichler are both pushing the V-max and for the life of me I can't understand why any professional or tournament hunter would risk shooting them after the experiences I and many others have had. I understand that some people haven't experienced any problems with them and they want to shoot them. To each their own... I will stick with the hollow points. They anchor the coyotes.

The cross section of the V-max makes it clear why they aren't a great bullet for coyotes. There is almost more plastic than metal in them!


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby Tim Anderson » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:18 pm

[quote][/I know I can send a .22 cal 50 grain Nosler BT down range a hell of a lot faster than I do. But it doesnt shoot as accurately, nor have the desired terminal ballistics upon impact as it does slower, in this case slower is better. I didnt match the bullet to the speed, I matched the speed to the bullet.

Speed schmeed. If the only thing im gaining by going faster is flatter trajectory, than im not going to try to go faster. And when it comes to "plastic tip bullets" and coyotes, faster isnt necessarily the way to go. But, many guys have been brainwashed into thinking faster is always better.

That being said, im always going to try to milk the most speed I can out of a load. But if an extra 100 fps means loose groups or impacts terminal performance in a negative fashion, im gonna slow it back down real quick.

quote]

Nothing wrong with loading it to go slower but if you drop far enough in vel. you could just go to the next cartridge smaller in size to get the vel. you want and still be accurate..
I've read on some boards where guys are loading a 22-250 to 223 vel., if this is the case then why not go to a 223 instead.

When I work up a load I find out what the max load is for my rifle for at least three powders that give the highest vel. for what bullet I'm useing.. After this is done then I pick out the two best loads for vel. and accuarcy. Depending on the group size I will then back the load down a 1/2 grain up to a grain and some where around there I will find the best accuracy for that load. I'll will then fine tune it by trying 2-3 different primers and just go hunting from there..

Years ago I did'nt like what the 243 did as far as hides go, I thought the 243 was just a little too fast with what bullets I was testing at the time.. So rather than try to load down the 243 cartridge which can be dangerous with some powders I just went to a smaller case which happen to be the 6mm H.L.S.
The 6 mm HLS is made from a 22-50 case necked up to 6mm and the shoulder moved back some what to create a longer neck. The vel. with this cartridge falls between the 6mm BR and the 243 win.
I had great results as far as accuracy with what ever bullets I tried, just could'nt get them to do what I wanted as far as hide damage.. I figured the 6mm bullet was just to much so I went back to the high speed 224 cal.s and 17 cal.s...

I can't afford to go out and test all the bullets out there as well but I'm lucky enough to hunt with a bunch of guys that have different cal.s and use different bullets than me and then I get to see first hand on how they perform.
I do most of the skinning so I also get a chance to look the animals over a little closer and keep notes on what was used and type of shot made, like distance, was it head on or running away or at a angle and so on..
The group takes around 130-150 coyotes a season so I get a pretty good picture of what is going on and whats working and what is'nt.. I do a depth check on the coyotes I have shot to see how deep my bullets go but don't do it on the others since I don't have alot of control on what bullet they should use. I make a suggeston and sometimes they follow it and sometimes not.. Later....


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby LeviM » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:42 am

The only experiece I have with vmax bullets is out of my .243, I believe they were the 58 grain Vmaxs? Terrible bullet, absolutly hated it. I had 3 coyotes run off in tournaments, I believe costing us placing in 2 of the tournaments. I switched to 85 grain Sierra BTHP, great bullet so far. The only problem I have with it is the low BC. Shooting a .243, I am thinking I am not getting the best out of caliber for long range shooting. Thats why I am very intrested in the hornady 85 grain Interbonds. If these dont perform for me, I will stick with the BTHPS. Great post, there are ton of perspective on bullets.
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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby Prairie Ghost » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:54 am

xdeano i shoot the 69 gr sierra matchkings

on a side note i haven't had any problems with the hornady plastic tips in my 204 on coyotes
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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby xdeano » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:16 am

what!?!? a match bullet for shooting coyotes, are you crazy?!? :lol: I'm only kidding. It was just an example to show people i'm NOT insane and that match bullets do and will kill coyotes. :wink: Ok, well maybe a little insane.

Oh and we're not going to get into the 204 debate. I haven't got the time or energy to go there.

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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:33 am

Let us not forget though why "match" bullets are made for. They are bullets held and made to tight tolerances and made for the tagret shooters and not made for hutning applications, they have tighter tolerances in jacket thickness bullet to bullet and grain to grain in weight and never really designed per say as a hunting bullet :D

Any bullet can kill stuff, but some will do it with more consistancy than others for all of the long drawn out reasons we have been discussing here :D


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby barebackjack » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:03 am

Jeck wrote:
xdeano wrote: If it was me, i'd probably pick the 52g HP Match, they work like you wouldn't believe. xdeano


xdeano - that is exactly what I have been shooting for the last couple years... except for my few expirements with the v-max. I have no complaints about the 52 gr BTHP's.

Thanks guys for all the posts. I like to hear everyones views on the subject. I am glad to see it is not just me that has experienced these problems. I know that Les Johnson and Fred Eichler are both pushing the V-max and for the life of me I can't understand why any professional or tournament hunter would risk shooting them after the experiences I and many others have had. I understand that some people haven't experienced any problems with them and they want to shoot them. To each their own... I will stick with the hollow points. They anchor the coyotes.

The cross section of the V-max makes it clear why they aren't a great bullet for coyotes. There is almost more plastic than metal in them!


Les Johnson and Fred "the dip" Eichler pimp out whatever product pays them the most, so are a poor barometer of whats best. And that, IMO is why v-maxs are so popular. Advertising advertising advertising. They spend more advertising dollars than just about any other bullet maker out there I think. Along with being offered in many factory offerings (probably again, due to advertising).





On the topic of "plastic tip" bullets. Ive tried to find the article but cant seem to track it down (ill continue searching) explaining in a ballistic sense, the true reason for the polymer tip in a ballistic tip. THe jist of the article was that overall, the ballistic tips act basically as a severe hollow point with an extremely thin jacket (which gives them a more "explosive" nature). Couple the thin jacket with the perceived notion that they must be pushed faster than fast, and you get what you get with them, splashing messes. The plastic tip is merely to improve BC and give the bullet a more uniform meplat vs. a conventional hollow point considering the BT will have a bigger opening at the tip than a standard hollow point due to it having a very thin jacket. The article made a pretty solid argument for this reasoning. More so than I can make.


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby EO caller » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:48 am

Prairie Ghost wrote:xdeano i shoot the 69 gr sierra matchkings

on a side note i haven't had any problems with the hornady plastic tips in my 204 on coyotes


Same here PG. Pretty much all the coyotes in my videos are whacked with 40 gr. V Max. As far as fur go's I wouldn't be caught dead using them unless I really liked to sew. We did start reloadeing for Trevors .204 with some hollow points and that helped with the holes. I've loaded 55 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips for my 22-250 and it makes pretty big holes coming out but again if you go to the hollow or lead tip it seems to not be to bad. I dont know why the plastic is so bad on fur.
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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:03 am

The reason some plastic tips are bad on fur is the bullet contruction and the depth of the tip. Varmint bullets have thin jackets, pushed at higher speeds "generally" speaking and when they hit something solid they explode, again for the purpose made they do a wonderful job, I would use them all day long on a p-dog town with no worries. Coyotes aren't a P-dog.

You can get many plastic tips designed with a thicker jacket in larger than .22 caliber meant for larger game. The Accu Bond, the inter bond, the bal tip hutning bullets, the GMX bullets all have plastic tips to aid in BC, where they are differance is the jacket thickness, the make up of the metal used, the depth of the tip and the bonding process of jacket to lead core. That makes a big differance for sure. The GMX are a non lead bullet the plastic aids in exspansion with out that pastic tip they would pencil through alot of game, so in their case because of the make up of this non lead bullet the tip produces reliable exspansion. Those are all plus things when the bullet is designed to do the exact opposite or a varmint constructed bullet. Varmint made to be highly frangiable, hunting bullets are made to offer as reliable exspansion as possible with out seperating near as much.

A solid object is going to give more energy than something that hits on contact and shreds a part and using up much of that energy in the process of exsploding.


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby Tim Anderson » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:50 am

[ The plastic tip is merely to improve BC and give the bullet a more uniform meplat vs. a conventional hollow point considering the BT will have a bigger opening at the tip than a standard hollow point due to it having a very thin jacket. The article made a pretty solid argument for this reasoning. More so than I can make./quote]

. I've loaded 55 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips for my 22-250 and it makes pretty big holes coming out but again if you go to the hollow or lead tip it seems to not be to bad. I dont know why the plastic is so bad on fur.


Problem with the plastic tips is it causes the bullet to exspand too soon when it hits a solid part of a coyote such as shoulder bone or a meaty area like the chest and hips.. The larger openning also is a major factor as why it opens up to soon...
Berger bullets make to different size H.P. on some of the 17 cal. bullets. The larger H.P was designed for P.D. and smaller H.P. for punching paper and shooting coyotes.. I think Berger even posted a warning about this as well..
Like some have mentioned you can slow a bullet down to also slow down the exspansion process or you can also speed it up to get the bullet into the animal faster as it exspands.. The problem is when the bullet travels at a speed thats in-between, thus the mixed results shooters have with the bullet..
A couple of years ago two of the guys I hunt with where haveing mixed results with the 58 gr. V-max.. For a couple of days it worked perfect and then all of a sudden not so hot..

I asked both of them if they changed anything in there loads and both replied no. I brought my Chrono along the next day and found that one of the guys load was shooting a tadd slower than it should, found out that he had a friend reload for him and he made a change in the load without telling him.. Also found that with some powders the colder it gets the more it affects youre load and slows it down some if youre load was worked up dureing the summer month's.. Anyway some changes where made to there loads to compinsate for the low temps. and the bullets went back to performing like they should.. I never ran in to this problem before as I do most of my load work-up late in the fall or early winter.

I think that a hunter that is useing one of the plastic tips or any other bullet should keep better track of whats going on around him he may find a reason why or why not the bullet did what it did on a certain day.
Keeping records may show a pattern and give a shooter a good idea of what changes he needs to make in order to get a certain bullet to work for him. Shot placement, temp.s, distance of shot, speed of bullet all play a part in the big picture......


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:29 am

Tim, the issue or real differance of construction that I think some want to over look, I don't think when you take a smaller bullet and vary the speed by 300fps above 3,000fps your going to get much of a change in performance, I have not seen that with thin skinned bullets at all. You will see this differance more pronounced in a bullet with a thicker jacket, harder metal make up meaning more of a traditional hunting bullet. Not to mention most guns will tell you at what speed and pressure combination it likes to shoot best at, I wouldn;t want to have to lower the speed of a bullet just for the bullets sake and give up grouping or end up with a higher SD . I just as soon switch to a better built bullet and let that gun tell me where it likes to be shot best and have no worries on performance, that in a nuthsell to ME is the perfect bullet :D

I look for a bullet that will perform close to the same be it 100 yrds or 600 yrds, and bone at either end of the yardage spectrum.

The laws of physics are what they are: a "fast" smaller bullet will not have the down range energy or be able to stay together near as well as a larger bullet made to expand but still hold together.

The plastic tip aids in exspansion no doubt, but the jacket and core makeup will determine how much and how quick the exspansion will be. The base and melding of jacket and core will determine how much one can find intact after the impact be it muscle or bone.


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby barebackjack » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:55 am

coyotelatrans wrote:Tim, the issue or real differance of construction that I think some want to over look, I don't think when you take a smaller bullet and vary the speed by 300fps above 3,000fps your going to get much of a change in performance, I have not seen that with thin skinned bullets at all. You will see this differance more pronounced in a bullet with a thicker jacket, harder metal make up meaning more of a traditional hunting bullet. Not to mention most guns will tell you at what speed and pressure combination it likes to shoot best at, I wouldn;t want to have to lower the speed of a bullet just for the bullets sake and give up grouping or end up with a higher SD . I just as soon switch to a better built bullet and let that gun tell me where it likes to be shot best and have no worries on performance, that in a nuthsell to ME is the perfect bullet :D

I look for a bullet that will perform close to the same be it 100 yrds or 600 yrds, and bone at either end of the yardage spectrum.

The laws of physics are what they are: a "fast" smaller bullet will not have the down range energy or be able to stay together near as well as a larger bullet made to expand but still hold together.

The plastic tip aids in exspansion no doubt, but the jacket and core makeup will determine how much and how quick the exspansion will be. The base and melding of jacket and core will determine how much one can find intact after the impact be it muscle or bone.


In my experience with Nosler BT's (50 grain), several hundred fps makes a world of difference in their terminal performance. 3600 fps vs 3800 fps makes them seem like a completely different bullet when the copper hits the bone. But, they again are a beefier design than the v-maxs. IMO, due to construction differences, the v-max and noslers really arent even in the same class when compared at equal sizes.


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby Tim Anderson » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:22 pm

I also agree BBJ.

Another example of a bullet design would be the Calhoon line of bullets.. His bullets are designed for the smaller cases like 221 F.B., 222, 223, and 22-250 being as big as you would want to go. His bullets use what he calls a double H.P, the bullet has a H.P. just like any other H.P. and it also has a cup at the base of the bullet.. The bullets are not designed to go at high vel. speeds but more of a medium speed that the cartridges I mentioned produce...
I used them in my 221 F.B. on fox and coyotes and had great results if the shots where kept under 300 yds. I was'nt seeing any hide damage and the bullet was putting them down.. I had a few coyotes that where shot in the neck and the bullet still had enough energy to come out the other side leaveing a small hole.. I have a few friends that also use a 221 F.B. for called cats and any coyotes that happen to show up on there cat stands. They where useing the 40 gr. B.T. at the time then tried some of the calhoons and now have switched over to them due to better results they are haveing.... Anyway if some of the guys are calling in tite areas where the shots are limited to less than 300 yds. the Calhoon maybe a better choice over a plastic tip...


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