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Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby Coyotehunter » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:22 pm

I have been shooting match bullets (69 sierra right now 3500 fps) out of my 22-6mm for 12 years. No problems, very accurate, very deadly on coyotes.
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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby Dcoy » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:10 pm

Hi folks.Left the site awhile ago then yesterday heard a pic of one of my coyotes was on here and being IDed as proof of plastic tip 'splash' cause of 4200fps or god knows what.Just skimmed the entire thread and have to say its kind of hilarious.Jeck specifically asks about 'V-Max' and gets 5-6 pages of opinions on near every bullet made. :lol:
I'd say shoot V-Maxs if they work for you,don't if they won't.Pretty simple. :D On the other hand,please don't be ignorant like some and assume BTs are the same.As I see BBJ explained,they are substantially different than V-Maxs.All BT bullets differ by caliber on jacket and base thickness and vary in application.If you really think they are inadequate for Coyotes,consider tracking down media penetration studies by Rick Jamison and others first.There may be reasons not to use them but penetration or 'splash' isn't one of them IF PUSHED adequately.(the opposite of 'common knowledge')
Well I refuse to argue with rocks but an ADC guy I respect a great deal and thats on here a lot agreed I should clarify this so here's the 'rest of the story' on the coyote in the pic Bucs posted.That female and a male ran up to about 55 yards and stopped at the hill crest with just her high chest,neck and head showing.The male stopped with just his eyes and ears showing.I wanted him,not her but when he saw me he wheeled and ran.She was still looking at the call so I swung and center punched her HEAD ON in the high chest at about the base of the neck.(as low as I could without hitting the snow).It entered,then hit the spine destroying about an inch of it,and then deflected/disintegrated taking out the shoulder as well and then exited leaving the hole some assumed was proof of 'splash'.In short the BT performed above expectations and was the opposite of 'splash' which presumably results in fragging/crippling,spinners/runaways/etc.
ANY of the rifles I shoot coyotes with would have messed up that mangy bitch regardless.BTs may have faults but this was certainly not an example of one.My 243 with 70 gr BTS,HPs,SPs,whatever would have cut her in half at the range and with that hit.243 with 87s would have done more than a meat grinder.My 22-250 with anything would have produced a similar result.Heck my AR 223 even with FMJs would have ruined that pelt at that range,angle and hit.Fact is once in awhile there are conditions or hits where anything but maybe a 22LR would destroy fur and if you disagree,you haven't killed much.
As to 4200 fps,yup love it.I go with as much speed as possible in every rifle/caliber as long as I retain the accuracy I require.Pretty simple,pretty basic.I've NEVER had exterior 'splash' with that rifle and BTs.Reverse splash(exit splash)?Yup and so what.From 1 yd to 350 its hold and shoot,not hesitate,wondering about distance,or lobbing rocks,just aim and shoot. :D
Bucs could also have posted a pic of me with 3 others,same trip,same rifle,same BTs(160 to 282 yds) with one shot,NO EXIT,kills.Not flopping or twisting or spinning kills,true paralyzing BANG FLOPS!
CTRANS,I did enjoy the 243 article/site you referenced.Thanks for that.When mine gets threaded for my new can I'll be trying a few of those loads.Love the high speeds particularly.Speed does kill and those guys have grasped the concept of 'time of flight' and the basic math principle that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.
Good hunting all!


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby bucksnbears » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:56 pm

Dcoy, yep, that cannon is a shootin sombich :D time of flight is :shock: :shock: wish you coulda been here to watch the skinning. that one you finished off got hollowed out from throat to anus :shock: i do agree with BBJ,Xdeano on the vmax vs b/t's. the b/t's seem to be a way better bullet. i'm also quite sure that if you did try a vmax at the velocity that your pushing them b/t's that there WOULD be surface splash to the max. most likely on every shot. i never used to care what a bullet did on coyotes fur wise but now that i'm gonna try putting up fur, there is a concern about damage wheather it's splash or exits..per Tim A's advise, i decided to try a hot .17cal. (.17-204). can't wait for it to get here :D..hell, i might even buy a few boxes of nosler partitions for the 250 and try them again. pe'pe (my .222) just doesn't get the job done with vmax's or b/t's. my opinion is next to the barnes varmint grenade, the vmax's are the next worst coyote bullet that i've tried
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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:37 pm

Dcoy wrote:My 243 with 70 gr BTS,HPs,SPs,whatever would have cut her in half at the range and with that hit.243 with 87s would have done more than a meat grinder

Dcoy honest assement it is the same I saw with the 80 grain Bal Tips as well. The point you didn't mention is they are not a hunting bullet. I thought I had a great combo with Nosler 80 grain bal tips until I hit a few shoulders, yep 100% splash from 80 yards to beyond. Your still in what they consider a varmint offering and they are "MADE" different than the 95's for sure. Full splash not exit damage due to the make up I was pushing these at 3,190 and splash isn't good IMO of course :D

If you really want to try a better bullet give the 95's a chance in that .243 or maybe the inter bonds they are made to hold together better.

The laws of phsyics come into play the faster you shoot a bullet and it impacts a solid object the better the properties of that bullet need to be unless your looking for it to expload. Also the faster it goes the less dense the mass needs to be before it does fragment into a pile of pieaces.

I'm not saying low gut hits are alot different because of the very soft tissue and the force, but most other hits you will have more anchoring force and better "overall" consistant performance from a better built bullet. My Idea of a better built bullet for coyotes and larger is one that will mushroom and retain a higher % of weight over those that all you find is fragments after the fact. Or better yet a nice side shot with a small entery hole and an exit not bigger that a quarter or less the majority of the time.


Frontal shots are 90%+ entry with no visable exit with these bullets. I would love to see more companys offer a good muchrooming bullet in the .223 and .225 diameters the market is some short on those.

Use what you want by all means but to me a varmint bullet is never the ideal choice for shooting coyotes over a wide range of circumstances. Carry ON


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby jaybic » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:16 pm

I am not trying to disagree with anyone but I am gonna start taking pics and keeping record of every coyote I kill so I can reference the pics and either see this Vmax bullet splash for myself or reel in some of the nay-sayers. I am not saying everyone or anyone for that matter is wrong. I just find it incredible that my partner and I and a couple of other hard core coyote hunters have had great luck in terms of DRT coyotes, small entrance, no exit, no run-offs(on coyotes hit where they are supposed to be) with these bullets and every one else has had such horrible luck with them. I know that you all are seasoned coyote hunters and I am quite sure you all know what you are doing and talking about but my point is to prove some one wrong......myself! I have just not had any of the lousy experiences that you all have had and even if I dont shoot as many as the fellas hunting out west where the big numbers are taken, just like the laws of physics, the law of averages does not cease to exist. I have probably shot 50-60 coyotes in my entire coyote hunting life and watched my buddies kill about that same number with vmaxes and just have not seen it. My worst "bullet splash" experience came on the first coyote I ever killed in my life with a .243 and a Sierra 60gr HP flat base going about 3800fps. I hit him dead broadside 2 inches behind the front leg and he ran about 150 yards and tipped over dead. When I walked up to him, he looked like he hand eaten a hand grenade and it blew out the side that I hit him on and left a foot wide blood trail that looked like he was dragging a mop soaked in bright red paint. It was ugly but other than that, when I have done my part and hit them good and square(not some bad angle, wobbly ass runnig hail mary shot), those bullets have always performed well. I almost want to have a bad experience so I can see what you all are talking about.

On a separate note, prior to switching to Vmaxes, I was using 52gr Sierra HPBT matchkings until I read in the Sierra reloading manual......"Sierra does not recommend Matchking bullets for hunting applications." I called up the Sierra ballistics technical hotline as was told by Paul Box(long time Sierra ballistics tech) that that warning was intended for deer type game and that the Matchkings should be great coyote bullets and the few coyotes I have killed with them had no problems getting dead in a hurry. Same with the few coyotes i have shot with 55 NBTs and 55gr Sierra Blitzkings...except both produced fairly sizeable exit wounds.

I guess what I am saying is that when I am sure beyond any doubt, that it was vmax bullet performance and that performance ALONE that costs me a coyote, tournament or otherwise, and not a bad angle, lousy shot placement, wobbly shot, error in distance judgment, wind blowing the bullet off just enough or some other stupid reason that caused a marginal hit, step up to a larger caliber or a get a new rifle that shoots something else better(I try many bullets of many types in any new rifle i buy) I will change bullets immediately to something else but like any of you would do, I have to see the bullet fail for myself first and I have not seen it yet....knock on wood....other wise shoot what ya have faith in I guess.....now ya'll got me worried my bullets going to fail.

Anybody know what bullet Les Johnson was shooting when he was in that contest where in brought in 10 or 11 coyotes one day and 12 or 13 the next? Success speak for itself right BNB(....aka...15 in one day!!!!!!!)

Later guys,

Jaybic
these


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:46 pm

OK went through some photo's I need to take more of bullet performance!

Here is one I took entrance not even noticeable these are a big % of coyotes with a 95 nolser if I remember right this was like at 80 yrds it seems to me I wanted to show the peromance up on closer ranges no noticable entery like most with this bullet.

Image



This is the standard exit hole size of a 95 in close even off a rib bone they mushroom some and move on through leaving flat dead coyotes the majority of the time. Quarter sized hole or less majority of the time. Lung tissue inside jello

Image


Now this was the A max bullet at 150+ yards shoulder bone and results, allsurface damage very little penetration the reason they no longer make the grade for ME.

Image


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:13 pm

Here is an excellent talk on terminal balistics.

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/terminal


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby xdeano » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:33 pm

what grain Amax?

That rifle needs some paint man. :lol: Sorry CL i had too.

I don't care what kind of robo coyote you have down there that coyote shot with Amax was dead on sight, he isn't going anywhere. I'd guess is that little thing called cavitation is what made that wound as it hit the bone, but i'd about guess that the lead made it to his hips and the jacket made it to about his diaphragm.

When I was in College, i enlisted some help from the Art people taking ceramics. I'd get blocks of clay that were 1' x 1' x 16", i'd stick them out at 100yds, 200yds and 300yds and shot at them once with bullets just to see what the cavitation and wound channeling looked like on a given bullet. Now this was before I could get my hands on ballistic gel and figured that clay would be a decent media. Let me tell you that it was unreal to walk up to some of those clay blocks. Some had the whole front blown out to about 8" in diameter hole and bullet sitting nicely in a cavern of clay 10" in. I had some that entered a few inches in and blow up leaving a huge cavern in the middle and when you'd cut it length wise, it was a huge hole, with a pin hole in and nice small bullet sitting in a hole on the other side. So that being said, it's tough to judge a book by it's cover. My guess is that it killed that coyote stone dead and made some nasty work out of the inside.

I've shot quite a few Amax's and they hold together significantly better than the vmax, because as you say they are a match round and have a thicker jacket, which should in all actuality hold together better. I like the match rounds to be honest, they work well with coyotes. I've shot them in 22-250 with the 52g, shot them in 243 with 87g, shot them in 308, with 155g, 168g and 175g and you'd be surprised at what they do: make dead coyotes. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, i'm just stating the facts. Those of you who believe that a match round is not for shooting animals, is listening to closely to Sierra's Lawyers.

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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby Tim Anderson » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:56 pm

The last coyote with damage, was that from a 52 gr A-max????
What ever it was looks like it hit more of the edge going in and came back out with in the same area...
Why so much blood on the coyote in first pic??? :P


Here is what I call a splash, was made by a 204 ruger shooting some lite factory load.

Image
Image
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Another pic of the results useing a 52 gr. A-max
Image
Image


A splash caused by a 25 gr. hornady 17 cal.
Image


And last just some coyotes shot with the Predator.. :mrgreen:
Image


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:06 am

OK the .243 coyote the above pic Tim why so much blood? because they just jello the insides and many of them pour out blood from all the internal damage from exspansion but moving on thru the vitals. :D If your assuming I covering something up you would be wrong!

The A max is a 52 grain and this is not an exit hole!!!! Also this didn't do much at all for major internal damage besides the lower wind pipe. Bullet flew apart on shoulder contact.


I can stated since swithcing to the .243 with a "Hunting bullet" in 3 years of use I have never seen this splash, it is gone!


AS long as the gun is dull don't worry about painting them anymore. :D


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby lyonch » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:07 am

Has anyone ever really tested bullets, using a block of gel to test shock wave? I'm sure some will be suprised in what they see for damage and at what distance in the block. For me a perfect bullet would go in about 1-2 inches and reak havoc with it's shockwave until about 4-5 inches, then pop out the other side barely bigger than the entrance hole.

For anyone who shoots a .22 caliber bullet, i would really give the 55 grain siearra spitzer boattails a try. If they shoot good for you out of your gun, test them on a couple coyotes, and I hope you see the same results i have been. I hunt tournaments and for fur at times, and this bullet has done well in both for me.
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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:59 am

Remember this part of terminal bal:

In essence, a bullet going through soft tissue has the same effect as dropping a stone into a pail of water - if the stone (bullet) enters the water slowly, the water (tissue) displacement is so gradual that is has little effect on the surrounding molecules. If the stone (bullet) enters the water (tissue) with a lot of momentum, however, the surrounding molecules have to act a lot more quickly and violently, resulting in a splash (temporary cavity). Temporary cavitation is important because it can be a tremendous wounding mechanism.

Both permanent and temporary cavities are greatly affected by a bullet’s design, sectional density and velocity at the time of impact.


That is on soft tissue now imgaine the differance between that and bone!!!!!!!! The last line to me is very important and what I have found to be the case!


Tim FWIW time for a new and different Glory SHOT photo.


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby lyonch » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:25 am

CL thanks for that analogy! This is just my opinion, but when i see bullet splashes, i think of them as the animal is absorbing the energy externally and not internally where the vitals are. It is more than just the bullet that makes a basketballs size hole. The energy/shockwave that it is producing causes much of the damage. The right constructed bullet, will carry this energy through bone and into the vitals. A bullet does not need to disingrate (sp) inside of the animal to cause the most sever damage. The more you practice shooting your gun, will trump more than just shooting the so called "perfect bullet".
Chris Lyon


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:32 am

Ok here is the Nolser Varmint bullet look at how the jacket stays the same down to the base, look at the tip and the cavity of this bullet and the void in this area and longer tip, sure it has a nice base but how much drive can that base give you if 80% or more this bullet explodes with less penetration?

Image



Now let's look at the difference between the Varmint above and this hunting bullet below. Less void at the tip,the tip section is a tad less and notice the gradual thickening of the jacket as the bullet starts to peel back or mushroom.


Image


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Re: Shooting Coyotes with V-max Bullets...

Postby coyotelatrans » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:33 am

The hornady bullets:

Here is the V max notice the deep tip, thin jacket all the way down to the base, small bearing base



Image


Next the Amax less tip depth but still jacket is thin down to the base and again no bearing to the base HOw could this bullet mushroom with no back bone or gradual thickening of the jacket? What is there to hold it all together? NO bonding process used on these bullets.

Image

Next is the SST Hornady version of the Bal Tip per say, Notcie the gradual thickening of the jacket tip not too deep and a lock ring half way down to keep it from banna peeling to far or seperation too much.

Image

Last is the interbond notice the thickening of the jacket, a bonding process to keep the jacket and lead together with no lock ring needed, more exspensive to do so hence the higher cost.
Image


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