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Male or Female??

Share your coyote hunting tips, techniques, and thoughts about coyote hunting.

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Re: Male or Female??

Postby coyotelatrans » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:51 pm

5.56 even if you take out a den in an area that has a decent coyote population by early Fall in many of these areas they will be filled back in with other coyotes, life is a pecking order and the best habitat will fill in faster, when there is a vacancy. I understand some don't like to kill coyotes spring and summer but the over all population will be just fine by doing so.Unless your covering a large area really well for a period of time.

The lactating deal from a yoy female coyote is something I have never bought in on to any degree, the rarity of it taking place I wonder if it can even be quantified? In order for any female to come into lactation that has to be a hormonal response, if no such occurrence took place how does lactation take place? Is it physically possible? Sure but to any degree? I don't think so. I think more coyote pup's are apt to be fed by others once they have been weaned and a matter of bringing them solid foods, heck many cows won't allow sucking without grafting of a calf let alone a female to just start to lactate inside of what 48 to 72 hrs, which would be needed or severe dehydration would take place in many cases. Sorry never really bought into that one with much conviction as to the occurrences.

Say you shot a female lactating coyote at 10am on a Tuseday at what time and where is that YOY female at? What time frame triggers her to start lactation? Maybe the lactating female went for a stroll, what triggers that non lactating female to start producing milk and how quick are those hormones? How long does it take for those mammary glands to kick in and produce viable milk for 3-6 pups? Are those pups milk free for 12hrs, 24 hrs 48 hrs and how long can they go before dehydration takes it's toll? Alot of variables in that entire scenario for sure and the likely hood is very,very low IMO.


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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Prairie Ghost » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:24 pm

CL: I would imagine in a lot of the cases of a yearling or non birthing female to start lactating and take care of the pups of another female would be a daughter to the true mother of the pups that is already attached to that den. If you call in and shoot the female off of a den and get lazy and don't take care of the hole the male and the babysitter are going to take care of the pups period. I believe people have a misnomer about just how old coyote pups need to be before they can be without milk. I would not say that every den gets taken care of from a "serrogate" mother but i will tell you that not many coyote pups die of starvation and dehydration. Let a few dens get away from you this year and let me know when they show up again with someong killing for them. :wink:
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Re: Male or Female??

Postby coyotelatrans » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:54 am

PG the differance would be weaned or on milk, doesn't matter the daughter of the lactating female still doesn't take into account how or what triggers her to start lactation and when. Tell me how many non pup bearing females have you run across who was showing signs of lactating???? The survival rate would increase the older those pup's are and the closer to being able to eat solid foods, versus those still relaying 100% on milk. Timing would play into it. My point is something triggering a non bearing female to automaticly start to produce milk for those pups that are 100% on milk and the timing well I'm not buying into that theory to any degree. Dehydration in a canine that weighs a few lbs would not take too many days, remember the importance of liquids to canines.2- 3 week old pups I wouldn't even begin to figure their chance of survival if the lactating female was killed.

I'm not saying don't get those pups, that is a given and is the right thing to do, I'm saying the calculating of such an event occuring and working out for the benefits of those pups well again is it quantifiable? Age of those pups would mean everything as we discussed correct?


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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Prairie Ghost » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:58 am

Myself zero! Hope i never have to deal with that. I know of two people that have seen it more than once. I have however seen where i thought there is not a chance of them surviving and have them bite me in the ass later in the summer with two adults killing for them. Timing yes very big deal however i think that if they are over a week old your in trouble unless it's still really cold out. Thats my point. Most people believe that they have to be running around outside of the den to survive without there birth mother and that is just not the case.
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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Coyotehunter » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:48 am

I have raised some very young pups and they will eat about anything you put in front of them. Teeth or know teeth. In the early spring I think you have more more pups dieing because the chill down with out a female at the den. That male is not going to go in there and snuggle with those pups. He will bring them food but that is the extent of it. As far as the spontaneous lactating.............I have not seen it, I have not read any studies that support it and would have to see it to believe it.
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Re: Male or Female??

Postby coyotelatrans » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:46 am

The issue with very young pups would be ,is their body capable of breaking down solid foods in their digestive system or not? There is a reason things start on milk correct?

I guess I have no reasearch to show at what time solid foods can become benefical in small coyote pups.

Not saying coyote pups aren't survivors, I was talking to theory of non lactating females starting in because of the wet female being killed off.


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Re: Male or Female??

Postby RandyRoede » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:36 am

CL,
I don't think this research, I read it somewhere, didn't just pull it out of a hat, would have been when a lactating female was past the first two weeks of nursing. Maybe, maybe not? She rarely leaves during that time anyway so the odds of her being killed would be slim. We all know the earlier the death of the natural mother the slimmer the chances of the pups surviving.

The odds of seeing this in the field and harvesting this female may be even higher that it actually happening. I would not assume the serogate mother would produce as much milk but only something similar to help to the transition from solely milk to the regurgitated food the adults bring back etc. to prevent dehydration.

You can assume if you kill the lactating female the pups are going to die, but I sure don't! Like PG posted you only need to be fooled once to see something is happening. A lot of those dry's a guy kills around a den could have been the surogate and dried up without the obvious birthing female evidence. Again I would not assume the bag up like a natural mother. I've shot numerous dry's with smooth summer bellies along with some birthing females that if i had not checked i would have assumed they were dry. The timeframe to see the evidence of a lactating nonbirthing female would be incredibly small.

I don't think anyone believes this happens everyday but is just another way coyotes adapt and survive. In this business if it could happen, or you've heard of it happening, it should be enough ,especially in sheep country, to guard against it and take the extra step to find and smoke the den. It's easier to assume it, but it's not always the best. Expect the best, plan for the worst, is a good motto!!

How things going up there? Your lucky you have those pred districts!
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Re: Male or Female??

Postby coyotelatrans » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:52 am

Randy, I still think the ability of a dry non bred female to start lactation to feed anothers pups is so minute it has little bearing. As in very rare. Yes only one predator board has signed on until the deadline date, but they are sheep producers so they know the cost versus effect of not paying the bill. Things going OK, I sure hope this all works out for the betterment of all. AS though pups get larger they become suckers for traps sets close to the water or on the travel lanes going to the sheep. When the mobility of others keeps them moving closer to a new food soruce.What would be even better is miles and miles of ground tight woven wire 5ft tall :D Those days are gone for the most part, as we have more cattle producers getting into sheep again because of the prices paid.


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Re: Male or Female??

Postby RandyRoede » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:03 am

I hear ya, just found 500 head of sheep working a calf deal. About as far SW in my district as a guy can get. Like you said, cattle guy going back to sheep. I have at least 6 I know of in the last year getting back into them. Not the numbers like you all have out there but in some bad spots.

Yea hope it all works out for everyone!
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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Tactical.20 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:52 pm

from what I learned was the young females or other coyotes in group will bring food to the pups if the parents are gone, but haven't heard of lactation starting cause pups are needing it.
good answer on page one Randy!


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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Coyotehunter » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:48 am

coyotes are great parents. very good thread. lots of good info here.
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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Kelly Jackson » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:15 pm

This is an informative thread.

Got a couple of questions as I have been asked to bring my dogs and work several ranches in the next couple of months.

Are you saying I don’t need to carry the JRT and find the den to take care of the pups?
Last year I only worked one goat ranch this time of year (in May) and killed the wet. Dogs backtracked and found the den and I had the JRT take care of it as I thought this was the right thing to do.

If I don’t find the dens is it safe to say other coyotes will provide, and the pups will not die a slow and pitiful death?

After it gets July here, I don’t give pups much concern as I know most can make a living off all the grasshoppers.

Look forward to your responses.

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Kelly


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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Coyotehunter » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:56 am

I have seen pups eat solids about as soon as their eyes open. there is a percentage of adult coyotes that will readily feed another coyotes litter. I would not say all but I just have heard of enough stories that this is more than speculation. I have had enough pups at the house over the years to see what they are capable of, not that in the field it is the same but it certainly gives you some indication what they are able to do. I have know idea what JRT is?? I guess I have not heard of that one. We use gas cartridges, I figure that is what you mean but I have not heard of it refered to JRT. I would say always try to find the den on a depredation call, just killing the adults is rarely enough, at least once they are able to get to the hole and make noise. As far as a slow pitiful death, well i guess if your worried about that don't kill mom..........if they make it to the den hole and I think there is a good chance for a percentage of them to survive. In a depredation situation 1 coyote pup is as bad as a dozen. I have seen the little bastards eat each other, they will get by for a while on their litter mates if they need to. I think the first 2 weeks or so their biggest problem is staying warm........not food or dehydration. Early pups that the bitch has been killed will have more problems with chilling down than food and water issues. The dog coyote will not go down that hole and lay with them.
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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Kelly Jackson » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:01 am

JRT is my Jack Russell Terrier. He will go down and hole and do what is needed, or at least he did last year on the one goat ranch I hunted during denning season.

Cold is not an issue here as lows at night are already in the 50's. Days in the 80's.
I am not a ADC man and just hunt coyotes cause I like to.
The Guys that are calling me now just want to knock em back a bit just before the WT fawns start hiting the ground and there after as they make prety good coin from thier deer hunters.
These areas are cattle operations and none have lost calves todate.

In the years past, I have held off April thru July for the most part before working my dogs.
This year will be a bit differant and I just want to do the right thing.

Until I read this thread, I had no idea that none family members would feed pups. I figured they would eat any they came across.
Kelly


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Re: Male or Female??

Postby Prairie Ghost » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:27 am

Kelly if WT fawn survival is the goal at hand you need to do your best at removing the den. If you have other adults take over feeding them WT fawns are going to take a hell of a hit and they can generally be tougher to kill (the non birthing coyotes that are feeding the pups) If you wait until July to get started the damage will already have been done. Removing coyotes during denning season is just not something you can do halfway you really need to treat it as a all or nothing situation or it will end up biting you bad.
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