Coyotes Vs Red Fox

[LeviM]

A few other posts got me thinking alittle. Everyone I talked to about the disappearing of Red fox over that last 10-15 years, either blamed on too many coyotes, mange, and over harvesting. What I realize is that mange hit eastern ND really hard and almost completely wiped out the fox, and over harvesting in late 70s to mid 80s didn't help factors either. I guess my question is now that we are starting to see more red fox, and the coyote numbers are growing every year, can we really blame the coyotes for the disappearing of red fox. I personally passed up around 15-20 red fox this year around my area, but on the same hand there are more coyotes around in the same sections than a guy knows what to do with. Can the coyote and red fox adapt and live together?

My personal opinion, the over harvesting, and then later on the mange did a number on the red fox. Once people started to realize coyotes were migrating across ND in more numbers the blame was then pushed on them. Don't get me wrong coyotes will kill a red fox, but do they kill as many as we think? Just curious on everyones thoughts, It will be great to see more red fox around.

[lyonch]

I think that if we were able to harvest more before they got mange they wouldn't have gotten the mange so bad. thats just my opinion but i agree i dont think we can blame the coyotes for the dissaperance of so many fox at one time. I sure hope they make there comeback because they are definitely one cool critter

[Tim Anderson]

Years ago when the fox numbers where high i would only hunt the surplus fox. These fox are the ones that had moved out of the creek bottoms to find there own terr. (what i called high ground fox)
As long as i did'nt hunt them from the creek bottoms there would always be fox the next year to call to again..
Then back in the late 80's the coyotes moved in and a year or so later the mange.. The high ground fox started to disappear but still couldbe found down along the creeks and a few hunters figured this out and started hunting the creeks more and at the same time when were seeing more hunters afield..
More hunters started to target just coyotes and the coyotes here like to bed where they feed and that was along the creek bottoms and CRP fields.. If a fox was spotted it was a bonus for the coyote hunter.. The coyotes quickly learned to adapt to the hunting pressure and the fox did'nt...
As of late some fox started to show up again along the creeks and in the CRP, which we have alot of today and they where showing up closer to town and useing road culverts for a place to den up..
Most hunting groups i have talked to where starting to give what fox we had left a pass rather than kill them and also hopeing the numbers would come back..
I have only seen two fox and one coon that have been killed by a coyote and that was at the time when the coyotes first showed up.. Now we find coyotes and fox shareing the same ground and sometimes we kick them both up and thay were only laying a few 100 yds from each other...
The fox here are trying to make a come-back but now they have to deal with a new genaration of hunters that will shoot almost anything for a throphy shot..LOL
I still like to call a few in every year but i do it in a area where there are a few around and leave some for seed.
As for the mange it can be tougher on the fox more so than a coyote, it seems to spread faster on a fox and cause them to die off sooner.. I think most of the old dens have closed up and the fox that i'm seeing are staying more on the high ground so maybe the mange will stay away for good, or at least i hope it does...

[LeviM]

Good Post TA.

[lyonch]

TA do you think that the reason behind the mange spreading so fast through the fox was there social status with other fox?? im just curious why it spreads faster through fox than coyotes. If you could give your input on that i would greatly appreciate it.

[rhino]

Maybe it partly is a food source issue. Do coyotes and fox compete for the same food? I am seeing more fox around my area but not enough to hunt them.

[Tim Anderson]

TA do you think that the reason behind the mange spreading so fast through the fox was there social status with other fox??

Just a guess but i would say yes. More than one fox will share a den and they use them pretty much year round compared to a coyote. There terr is also smaller so the YOY don't go far and around the breeding season if you have a area with hi fox numbers they will gather in a certain area. One year a friend and i spotted 8 fox in the same section, it was a warm sunny day out and when we where driveing down the road we could smell the musk . I read somewhere in a trapping book that fox will do this, they have a name for it but i don't remember off hand. We just call it the Gathering and happens once a year.. Coyotes here will do something simular but on a weekly basis. Others may have seen simular with fox or coyotes and did'nt realize what was going on other than they saw 4 fox or more in a section or found a hand full of coyotes running together in a section and maybe hunted that area for weeks and maybe only saw one coyote hanging around and then all of a sudden they had the mother load..LOL
Years ago we had some coyotes running around that we could'nt figure out, everyday we would drive around certain sections and see tracks all over so then we would finally decide to hunt it. We would go through the section and not see many fresh tracks and no coyotes came out. This went on and off all winter.
One day i had a fresh track comeing out of a section so i followed it with a snowmobile, the track pretty much went in a straight line heading west and went on for five miles. I came to a fence line with a low spot that you could not see into from the road and i found four empty coyote beds. I looked the tracks over and two sets went back to the west, one went south and the other went back to the east from where i just came from.
I followed the track back to the East cause i knew where the other three where headed and i followed the track to an adjoining section to the one where the coyote stayed most of the time..
It dawned on me the coyotes where doing the same as the fox but on a weekly basis. Now i had these particular coyotes figured out so i took the snowmobile home and got the guys rounded up and we got 3 of the four..
Anyway i think this is how or why the mange is spread more quickly through a area and it just keeps over lapping from one area to the next.

[Tim Anderson]

Maybe it partly is a food source issue. Do coyotes and fox compete for the same food? I am seeing more fox around my area but not enough to hunt them.

Both of them compete for the same food, mice, pheasants,rabbits and such.But where each one lives will determine what there main diet is.. The coyotes like to live where they eat and here its the fields with CRP, they pretty much have a smorgesboard of what they want to eat and don't have to travel far..
If there is a creek going through a section of CRP then a few fox will also be found there feeding on the same. The fox on the higher ground will have a diet of mostly mice and once in awhile a cottontail if there is a vacant grove nearbye.. Here there is so much food for both i don't think they have to compete for it and that maybe why they are being found close together, but if a coyote gets a chance i'm sure he will kill the fox or coon..
Years ago we did'nt have much CRP or a high food source and plenty of hard winters so then the coyote had to kill his competition..

[Coyotehunter]

Coyote compete with fox for denning areas. That is a contributing factor in the numbers. the fox have to den in marginal habit making the pups and fall fox more suspectible to everything. The fox that was denning back in the draw is now having to den right behind the house. I am not aware of any study that shows that mange travels through a fox population any faster that a coyote population. All the same issues and perameters apply with both species. Fox are not as hardy and may not live as long but that has as much to do with the weather than anything else. They both compete for the same food but neither is ever starving, lots of food in Eastern Nodak. I have seen both fox and coyotes eating on the same dead deer, not at the same time but both with in eye site with the fox waiting for his turn. Mange had an effect on the population for sure but this is just a normal trend that all animals experience and highs and lows in population. The is a documented cycle that follows many food sources for predators. Lynx being the easiest to recognize the trend as they follow snow shoe hare populations very closely as its main food source. You do not see it in coyotes as readily because they have such a diverse food source. Several studies show prey base as having a influence on litter size for coyotes and may to some extent factor in population fluctuations with in fox densities in a given area.

[LeviM]

Jamie do you have a theory on why the fox numbers were so low for so long and now are starting to rise?

Another thought, with the light winters we have had the past 5 years could this contribute to the rise in fox numbers?

[Coyotehunter]

I would think partly becasue of the mange and recovery of the numbers made more difficult due to the loss of prime habitat to the coyote. Fox are pushed out to the edges of coyote territories, Next to main roads, farmsteads, near town, etc. Making them more visible to more people. Not sure if there is any basis for stating that the numbers are increasing. They may be but you just do not have enough info to make that statement as it relates to a given county or region of the state.

[Tbush]

I f I remember correctly the guy who presented the study on coyotes at the classic a few years back talked about this a bit and the biggest reason in fox #'s wa s in relation to coyote territories and fox not overlapping coyotes very much but I beleave as time goes on they have adopted to the changes of coyotes in traditional fox areas, back when they declined the yotes were hard on them but I think that has changed and will continue to do so. Mange was hard on them but you can't blame the coyotes for that as its host specfic, they can't transfer from coyote to fox and vise versa,just like your dog or you can;t get mange from them,... many types but in general!.

[Coyotehunter]

Mange is mange, it is not species specific. coyotes can get mange from a fox.

[barebackjack]

They way it kinda went in the northern part of ND at least was,

1. Coyotes got mange (at this time there werent many coyotes, they were "out west" for the most part).
2. Fox got mange.
3. Coyote populations recovered, expanded.
4. Coyotes invaded former "fox habitat".
5. Fox populations started to recover from mange.
6. Coyotes suppressed fox populations, pushing them into marginal habitat and virtually eliminating them from good habitat.

I see quite a few fox pups in spring and early summer. By fall though, their gone. I KNOW alot of pups fall victim to vehicles, I see so many road kill pups during the summer. I also think ALOT of pups succumb to coyotes. Ive seen pups bark at coyotes out of curiosity, its the lucky ones that live to pull this stunt a second time.

I think fox and coyotes are about on the same level when it comes to adaptability, but the coyotes have such a strong toehold now in most regions of the state that it will almost take another serious mange epidemic to knock them down to the point where the fox have a fighting chance. Than we'll very likely start our vicious cirlce again and end up with coyotes again.

[barebackjack]

Mange was hard on them but you can't blame the coyotes for that as its host specfic, they can't transfer from coyote to fox and vise versa,just like your dog or you can;t get mange from them,... many types but in general!.

Sarcoptic mange, caused by the Sarcoptes scabiei mite (what we mainly deal with in fox/coyotes) is NOT host specific. I've seen and treated it on fox, coyotes, dogs, cats, cows, horses, and myself. Any mammal can get it.

In fact, most mange types are now thought to be non host-specific. The last ive read is the Notoedric mites are non-transmittable to humans. Unsure on other mammals.