Coyotehunter.net

I started a new thread for those that want to discuss longer range shooting and what effects you think has merit to consistent long range killing of coyotes. I invite decoy, pilgrim and all others I think by sharing information we can all learn more on this subject!

A BC rating means how well a bullet overcomes air resistance during flight! The higher the BC the better for long range shooting IMO. These higher BC bullets will have better wind deflection, better drop rate and be more consistent over all than a lower BC bullet and how it is effected by the atmospheric conditions. You can go with a heavier bullet in a caliber at a slower speed and have a much more consistent shooter than a lighter bullet with a lower BC that gets bucked around by wind more. While a smaller bullet is faster it also is effected more, the longer the range the more adverse effects the faster,lighter lower BC bullet will have in both wind-age and drop. Under 300 yards time of flight makes up for this differance after that the effects are greater than time of flight and the more you add in time of flight the more adverse the effects on that lower BC bullet will be.

SD in a load also is a factor I read alot and talk to a few guys that do BR shooting and also coyote calling some for fun and some for a living and they all have stated their kill rate on coyotes has become much improved by shooting these BR matches, the misses go way down because of the information gathered on long range shooting. If you look at a bullet and your SD is say 30 FPS round to round at 100-300 yards no big deal but add yardage and it goes up alot. One guy stated that a SD of 30 FPS at 1,000 yards equates to additional drop of 10" by just having one round to the next being off by 30 fps!

So we may say well who shoots coyotes at 1,000 yards, we are correct to say not many! But it gives you an idea on the things that effect shots even at 400-600 yards and that small things can make a noticeable differance! I have a 22-250 loaded with ball powder it prints 1.5" higher with air temp at 80 versus in the 50's! What does that differance have at 400-600 yards? I will use a different powder like varget to see if I can lower that SD to 10 or under. Some powders give you nice low SD values and others are higher, add in range and that equates to a different point of impact round to round!

To some long range my not be their deal, many like to get critters as close as they can and that is what thrills them others like the thrill and challenge of shooting either big game or coyotes at extended ranges, some need to do it as a need to kill coyotes that are causing depredation problems, I want to be able to have the confidence and ability to makes those longer shots a high% of the time if needed or just for the challenge. We have alot of technology that can extend anyone who spends time shooting, they can make longer shots more consistent, but we still even with technology have to over come the same factors as the past. Wind deflection, bullet drop, and consistent loads to make consistent shots. Matching the bullet and load to the gun we decide to use helps cut down on some of the inconsistent variances we all see shooting at paper. So for me a higher BC bullet in a goven caliber is something that gives "ME" more confidance and more consistant results at longer ranges as long as you match that bullet with the proper twist and find a low SD.

What say you?

In the last ten years i have switched over to bullets with a higher BC than what i was useing at the time. I also hunt for the fur so i have to keep amount of bullet damage in mind with my selection of bullets.. In a 22-250 ackley i use a 52 gr. A-Max, it has a good BC for its weight and it works well on coyotes. I could go with a custom 65 gr. bullet that has a better BC than the 52 gr. but the 65 gr. canbe hard on the hides so the 52 A-max wins.. Is there a limit to how far i can shoot the 52 gr. A-max ? I'm sure its writteing in some book somewhere but in reality i have'nt reached the point to where the coyotes have stopped dropping.. Lots of practice, know youre bullet drop and windage, and distance you shoot. Now if you excuse me i have to go outside and beat my chest..LOL

Tim no chest beating just presenting what I know! Some have made the statement BC stands for bull crap and I say it doesn't, just having conversation is that wrong? I also shoot the 52 grain A max in a 22-250 but I have had runners more of them than a larger caliber. I have also had bullet splash as well, less of this from a larger caliber with a better bullet design. Alot No but enough I went looking for a different caliber to see if I could get those numbers lower. The amax overal does a good job but I like trying new things and getting that wind deflection down.

I was'nt refering to you on the chest beating.. Good post and yes its just good conversation.. I usually dial scope for bullet drop but i don't mess with the windage knob. For windage i just hold on a certain part of a coyotes body depending on how far away and how fast the wind is blowing.. Most of the time a coyote don't give you much time for all the corrections so i just do the one thats most imprtant and thats bullet drop. A correction canbe made on windage with the second shot as long as you can see where the bullet hits ground. Thats another reason i don't like to use to big of a cartridge, i like to be able to see where bullet is hitting through the scope..

Hey fellas,

I am no expert here but I do have to agree with one of the fellas(dcoy I think) on the .243 post that this came from.

Never, does the "arch" higher than the bore. From the moment the bullet exits the muzzle, it is dropping and only appears to "arch" because the muzzle is also pointed up. If you put your rifle on a bench and could run a cleaning rod down the bore at a target 100 yards away(or any distance for that matter) and that cleaning rod was 100 yards long and touched the center of the bullseye, your bullet will hit low and NEVER rise above that imaginary 100 yard long cleaning rod. Dont matter what caliber/load..ect.ect you are using.

Ialso agree with whom ever said that the whole BC thing really only matters way out there as most called coyotes are shot 60-150 yards or so. I think most fellas would agree with that but maybe not. However, 300 yard hangups are not abnormal and if you call in western states you guys know ya get these shots. To me this is where BC comes in.

While 300 yards is not a long shot its about max for a .223, Agreed? NO? Now add a 20 mph crosswind, a bit down hill, and a head-on chest shot(vitals on a coyote is about 4-6 inches wide here) and I think shooting a high BC bullet gets more important. If you hold dead center on the chest you can only afford to wobble(remember, its off a bipod or shooting sticks and the wind is buffeting you while your trying to get steady) 2-3 inches either way of center chest. It is here that every advantage counts, especially you tournament hunters. High BC @max speed=less drop+more aerodynamic=less wind drift=better chance of killing that coyote. Or maybe pass on the shot cause its risky. BC is not just about drop @ 1000yards.

Just me .02

Jaybic

Thanks for posting a new subject, I agree there is probably alot to learn, I for one am new to reloading. I am intresting in learning!

This stuff can be tough to make sense of without coming off like a pseudo-rocket scientist so here's a short story about what sold me on shooting 39 grain Blitzkings thru my .204 using BC as a guide. Keep in mind that I put the rifle together in recent months and have no field/blood experience with it.

Explanation on 250 zero: I understand it's more common to zero at 100 or 200 yards but I like to be closer to MPBR (Maximum Point Black Range) since the difference in zero height is less than the width of a pencil when going to 250 (high velocity loads).

Anyway, the following compares Trajectory/ Wind Drift @ 10mph/ Velocity of 3 bullets used in 3 popular factory loadings zeroed at 250:

.204 RUGER Hornady 32 VMax @ 4225fps
400 yards 500 yards
Drop: -10.7” -26"
Wind Drift: 19” 32”
Velocity: 2258 1881

.204 RUGER Sierra 39 Blitzking @ 3750fps
400 yards 500 yards
Drop: -11.3” -24.7"
Wind Drift: 14.9” 19”
Velocity: 2367 2079


.22-250 REM Nosler 40 Ballistic Tip @ 4100fps
400 yards 500 yards
Drop: -11” -26.5"
Wind Drift: 18.5” 31.2”
Velocity: 2257fps 1897

Note that trajectories and velocities all match up very closely at 400 and 500, but look the Wind Drift of the 39 grain Sierra. Also, the 39 Sierra's speed loss and trajectory loss is less (relative to the others) as it travels.

Question: How does the .204’s 39 Sierra exceed the ballistic performance of the others, particularly when the 22-250 is essentially the same weight and leaving the muzzle at a considerably faster velocity?

Answer: The .204 39’s aerodynamic shape.

Don’t knock the .22-250. Plug in a 50 or 55 grain high BC bullet and watch it shine since the aerodynamics improve considerably--- Same goes for any caliber. The Law of Diminishing Returns applies at each end of the weight ranges. Another thought is even though we don't often kill stuff at 400 yard or more, sometimes better to look at what each bullet is doing where the target is more challenging versus out of the muzzle or at high probability ranges.

This is just an example-- Maybe some could find useful.

Even better yet plug in a Berger 95 grain VLD with a BC of .514 in a .243 and see at 2,900 FPS how it will out perform smaller bullets at much faster speeds! I talked with Eric at berger and I'm now going to try this bullet! After talking with him, he stated I won't have to worry about bullet splash with this bullet! I won't have to waste time running down coyotes. I will load these with H-4831SC and if I can get 2,900 fps which should be very doable with a 26" barrel I will have a flat shooting/wind defying bullet that past 400 yards will deliver the smack down on coyotes I'm looking for! Again I told him not to worried about fur and he said good as it won't be fur friendly but will kncok the socks off of those coyotes at extreme ranges if need be!

That beats the other choice, which I will still try a 90 Nosler Balt ip at a BC of .365 and I only am increasing grains by 5 and getting a much higher BC bullet and way better numbers out to 600 yards, and the other benefit if my son uses it for antleope or deer no bullet switching needed!

The draw back is I will have to play with seating depth per Erics instructions I will try 4 different seating depths and he said 1 will really outshine the other 3 then go ahead with different powder charges to fine tune.

Some rifles will require a faster twist to stablize the bullet and the VLD bullets can only go so fast or they can come apart..

A few years ago i had a 17 rem. built with a 1-6" to shoot the new burger 37 gr. VLD bullet.. The bullet did a great job of killing coyotes and it was tough for a 22-250 to keep up in ballistic's. The down - fall was the manufacture and the bullet itself.. After i shot up my first two hundred rounds and bought new bullets it has never been the same, lucky if the new bullets will even hit a target at 50 yds.. I retired the barrel and put on a new one in 17 cal with a 1-9" twist and have been shooting 30 gr. ever since..

4 more days to try get my 'booner',then can get back on the site.Meantime remember there is no free lunch.
Couple quotes for now:

"The Ballistic Coefficient

Before discussing this topic in more detail, let's dispel some myths surrounding it. Whatever you may have heard before, these are the facts...

There is no such thing as an absolute and invariable ballistic coefficient (B. C.)
Ballistic coefficients are only one factor in bullet selection for different kinds of shooting.
A ballistic coefficient can change with reference to (1) altitude, (2) temperature, (3) atmospheric pressure, and (4) relative humidity.
Ballistic coefficients are measures of a bullet's relative efficiency.
Ballistic coefficients are not measures of a bullet's "goodness."
Higher B.C.s do not necessarily make a bullet "better."
Lower B.C.s do not necessarily make a bullet "worse." "(from Hornady)


Then there's things like the Magnus effect.

"Magnus effect
Spin stabilized projectiles are affected by the Magnus effect, whereby the spin of the bullet creates a force acting either up or down, perpendicular to the sideways vector of the wind. In the simple case of horizontal wind, and a right hand (clockwise) direction of rotation, the Magnus effect induced pressure differences around the bullet cause a downward force to act on the projectile, affecting its point of impact.[9] The vertical deflection value tends to be small in comparison with the horizontal wind induced deflection component, but it may nevertheless be significant in winds that exceed 4 m/s (14.4 km/h or 9 mph).

The Magnus effect has a significant role in bullet stability because the Magnus force does not act upon the bullet's center of gravity, but the center of pressure affecting the yaw of the bullet. The Magnus effect will act as a destabilizing force on any bullet with a center of pressure located ahead of the center of gravity, while conversely acting as a stabilizing force on any bullet with the center of pressure located behind the center of gravity. The location of the center of pressure depends on the flow field structure, in other words, depending on whether the bullet is in supersonic, transonic or subsonic flight. What this means in practice depends on the shape and other attributes of the bullet, in any case the Magnus force greatly affects stability because it tries to "twist" the bullet along its flight path.[10][11]

Paradoxically very-low-drag bullets due to their length have a tendency to exhibit greater Magnus errors because they have a greater surface area to present to the oncoming air they are travelling through, thereby reducing their ballistic coefficient (BC) value. This subtle effect is one of the reasons why a calculated BC based on shape and sectional density is of limited use." (Wikipedia)

Note the paradox stated in the last sentence.Nothing is simple.

Hundreds of hours on stand the last few weeks have given me tooooo much time to think.Also,a family of friends who are in the sporting business came on their annual waterfowl trip.At my request they brought assorted rangefinders for me to try.Crazy stuff!(for what its worth,I ended up buying the Swarovski 8 by 30 monoculer one after tests,and even at cost,that hurt)I'll try discuss those a bit on this subject as well.My 'tests'may help someone.
While I ponder all this crap on stand today,try this one on for size:Does gravity act on your rangefinders laser beam?

Goodhunting!

The fact remains you can get real close with our technology to give a bullet a decent/ close BC rating!

The fact also remains a higher BC bullet in a caliber will be effected less by those conditions than a lower BC bullet! Yes a higher BC doesn't make it built better as that is done when they design/construct the bullet, you could have a high BC bullet made with a very thin jacket, won't make it good at high speeds and for certain species. Also your short bullet does get a nod when compaired to the same weight and spin make up of a longer ie: heavier bullet, but make the longer bullet which most are with the weight more rear ward than a short fat/heavier bullet and with a good ogive and they take more spin to stablize well your back to them outperforming the smaller bullet past 300 yards!

Tim did you call berger and ask them about your issue? I don't think I will have that problem with the FPS I can achieve with a 95 grain in a.243 case? I also betting those are a varmint construction as well thinner jacker versus what they list as hunting bullets on there site? That is the issue I have with many of those light varmint bullets made for P-dogs not for 35-40 lb coyotes at faster ranges with heavier bone/tissue than any "true" varmint critter!

Another reason alot of guys at shooting comps have the mini weather stations gives them a read on wind,baro pressure,humidity and such before they walk down to the shooting line and make corrections! But it will also effect the lower BC in the same way! Still making the higher BC bullet better past 300 yards! I know a few callers that carry these in their pockets as well if nothing else to get a correct wind reading but the rest is their at there finger tips as well.

Your paradox can also be effected by using smaller bullets in too fast a twist rate of a rifle as the bullet jacket if off in thickness by alittle can be to over stablized and cause bullet wobble down range as well!There is a point where it only spins so much but for such bullets it can cause issue as above mentions. I don't think you will have alot of those issues with VLD's as many target shooters use them to make tiny groups on paper, I think the key with these are to have the correct rate of twist in tyour barrel, if they had a higher% of these factors they just wouldn't use them!

Good thread here,thanks for starting it. I’ve spent hours on stand the last few days thinking about it.I’ve come to the conclusion that its near impossible to discuss ‘BC’without discussing ‘ballistics’in general-and that’s a topic of books,not a post on an internet forum.(‘BC’being just a small part of ‘Ballistics’)So,rather than ‘argue’about BC in a vacuum, I’ll just throw out MY views on why its largely a non-issue in most hunting situations.if you understand ballistics generally hopefully you will understand what I’m going to try say with the following glittering generalities and ramblings.( don’t get me wrong,I love to ‘argue’and unfortunately am the type guy who thinks his wife,rifles,dog and truck-except maybe for Daryl on the truck part-is better than anyone elses’s,but I came to this site to learn-not argue so…)
First no doubt ‘BC’is important.Its something that shouldn’t be ignored and I don’t.(I don’t ignore anything about ‘ballistics’really.All my rifles have trajectory/wind charts attached to them someplace)Today though there are few,if any,bullets sold that fail ‘BC’wise.With 99% of todays bullets,its just not an issue to be worried about in day to day practical coyote hunting in my view.(other than by subject starved writers)As Daryl stated in the 243 post,most of our coyote hunting is relatively ‘close range’stuff.It appears from that thread that most agree that to about 300 yds,with reasonable bullets and velocity,BC is a non issue.I sure do.Except for a select few,I’d wager less than 10% of all coyotes are shot much beyond that range.Certainly that’s true if we stretch it to 400 yds.Hey,if you shoot 30 a year,or 130 a year,are you telling us more than 3,or 13 respectively,are shot beyond 400?Man,I’d like to meet you,AND see you shoot.’Shoot’not at a bench rest with controlled conditions,your ‘pet’elbow rest,trigger position,foot placement,wind gauge,etc, but rather in real world conditions.Maybe sitting,maybe excited,maybe too much coffee,maybe a face mask,likely with wobbling sticks or a quivering bipod on uneven ground at best,likely cold,gloves,fogged scope/breathing issues, often largely guessing about wind/distance,and on and on.Man do I want to see it!
Frankly if Randy Anderson,Les Johnson and the other ‘Scandihoovians’had to rely on videoing hunts where the shots were all over,say 400 yds,they would have to go back to selling Lutefisk and Lefsa cause there would be little to film-not to mention having to sell their shotguns.(now please note,I’m not picking on these guys at all.I respect,admire and like them both.They can/do make long shots but the real world of calling coyotes is relatively close stuff rifle wise.By the way,I’m also ‘Scandihoovian’-proud 50% Norski and 50% Swede.)
As you can see,I’m not talking bench stuff or any type of target shooting.I’m talking practical coyote hunting.(not even ‘hunting’under controlled conditions,say where you are using a bench shooting dogs or at Mr Chuckie Wood in some pasture in Pennslyvania trying to qualify for VHMs 1000 yd club)
Sure there are some who engage in true long range coyote hunting and there,BC may matter,but there are few dedicated solely to that and I’m not talking about those few.(a few years ago in NoDak we met a pissed off guy with a $7500 pretty painted heavy gun that had just overshot a 200 yd sleeping coyote.We’ll never forget,and I still chuckle whenever I think about what he told us…”I knew I was too damn close,should have crawled back aways”.
So,with that foundation layed,and rather than arguing with anyone,I’ll just give 4 bullet examples and briefly discuss them.As to Ballistics,I’ve loved the subject since I was a kid and urge those not familiar to get a working knowledge if you don’t have it.
There are many sources for gaining knowledge on ‘ballistics’but the best I’ve found,by far,is Jim Carmichels “Book Of The Rifle”.Its been my constant companion since the mid 80s.Want to really understand the subject?Read it-and,its so full of other good stuff I can’t imagine being without it.By the way,I see he just retired this month as Shooting Editor for Outdoor Life,a position he’s held since the early 70s when he stepped into Jack O’Connors boots.
The loads:
For these 4 loads I kept it to the 243 since that’s how this thread got started. I like and use Nosler bullets so just used their 55 gr,70gr and 95 gr ballistic tips as examples.I also used Coyotelatrans 95 gr Berger and his statement of its BC and velocity.(wanted to attach the actual printouts but….well most will recall my computer skills.)The Nosler BCs and velocities come directly from their reloading guide #4.The velocities chosen there were backed off approx 10-20fps second from their fastest listed load.I did that in all Nosler examples cause their hottest 55 gr load was 4069fps and I wanted to use my actual load which runs 4050.Wind(‘drift ‘the ballistic program called it)was 10mph-90 degree crosswind.
Since I’m having to type all this I’m leaving out ‘energy’,’recoil’ computations,etc.I used the basic calculator at Handloads.com if anyone wants to verify.’Recoil’etc isn’t insignificant(like Tim I dislike recoil but probably for more reasons than him with my eye situation-suffice it to say,the heavier the bullet,the more recoil there is)its just that I don’t want to type all this-especially for 4 loads.

Load #1.(55 gr BT at 4050fps,BC of.276,sighted in at 250yds.)
Range Impact Drift(their word not mine)
100 1.81 1.21
200 1.42 3.61
300 -2.37 7.86
400 -10.45 14.27
500 -24.03 23.23
600 -44.73 35.25

Load#2.(70gr BT at 3600 fps,BC of .310,250yds)
100 2.29 1.22
200 1.76 3.64
300 -2.89 7.92
400 -12.66 14.36
500 -28.81 23.33
600 -53.07 35.28

Load#3.(95 gr BT at 2900 fps,BC of .379,250yds)
100 3.56 1.26
200 2.64 3.83
300 -4.27 8.37
400 -18.43 15.15
500 -41.38 24.52
600 -75.13 36.84

Load#4.(95 gr Berger at 2900fps,BC of .514,250yds)
100 3.34 1.03
200 2.43 2.88
300 -3.88 6.07
400 -16.41 10.73
500 -36.06 17.03
600 -63.94 25.15

OK,the Berger is impressive wind wise indeed.Never shot them but clearly they work for many in the BC category.(I have a friend who shoots 210 gr 30 cal ones in his ‘long rifle’)However if I consistently shot at 600 yds,I’d still hate to give up 20 inches of trajectory to gain 10 inches in drift.Again,that’s me,and I’m not trying to be argumentative about it.
As to my 55s compared to any above,I rest my case at any range but certainly out to 400 yds.
The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line and my 55s are it.Also,at 300 yds my 55s are still moving about as fast as the 95gr leaves the muzzle.Bang-flop!Not Bang..…flop.Speed can make a difference when……..well,I’ll leaveit there.
Final comment,for ME,I want the flattest,fastest bullet I can shoot accurately.My ‘meat and potatoes’ critters are all inside 300 yds,I don’t compromise my odds there by being 3- 4 inches high.(hell,that’s the killing zone vertically on a fox-then if they were running,trying to consciously hold ‘off’low would make it nearly impossible for ME in the heat of the moment.)Can’t lose the meat and potatoes yotes to be questionably ‘better off’at 600-a range I doubt I’ve ever killed anything at.
Bench or consistent focus on ranges beyond 400 would change my direction on the issues here but not in my practical coyote hunting world.
Good hunting all,whatever you shoot!

Well,see the final version got compressed.For each load,first column is the range,second impact(trajectory),third is wind drift.

Also the site didn't like my slang version of 'Scandinavians' when referencing Norski's and Swedes.Wasn't slander or distasteful,just didn't like it I guess.???

After reading Dcoy's post it seems to me that there is no direct relation with ballistic coeifficent and wind drift. Since load one through three have about the same drift but different BC ratings how can one say that there is a direct relationship between the two. Although it did prove true in load #4 I personally would choose load #1 or something between load one and two. When a coyote starts getting to 300 yards and beyond and you aren't on a bench or practice that shot day after day the chances of you making the hold over right is nearly impossible. At those ranges if you move a 1/128 of an inch you will be off dramatically. So at that distance to hold that steady to make that caliber of a shot consistently off of a bi-pod or shooting stick with all the elements i highly doubt it.

Chris,

Here's a summary of Wind Drift and BC:

The only way to reduce wind drift is by shortening time of flight. There are only two ways to shorten time of flight: 1) increase speed. 2) use a higher BC bullet.

.